Reports and minutes

[Calion]

RONR In Brief says (p. 147), "The minutes do not include the contents of the reports of officers or committees…"

RONR itself says (p. 511), "A [committee] report can be given orally only if it is brief enough that the secretary can record its complete substance in the minutes…which he must do."

So the minutes don't include the reports of committees…unless they are given orally?

Edited February 9, 2020 at 08:00 PM by Calion

[Josh Martin]

30 minutes ago, Calion said:

RONR In Brief says (p. 147), "The minutes do not include the contents of the reports of officers or committees…"

RONR itself says (p. 511), "A [committee] report can be given orally only if it is brief enough that the secretary can record its complete substance in the minutes…which he must do."

So the minutes don't include the reports of committees…unless they are given orally?

Yes, that is correct. Written reports are filed along with the minutes, but the report is not included in the minutes themselves unless so ordered by the assembly, which is generally done only if the report is of great importance. See pgs. 470-471.

Furthermore, I would note that the circumstances under which a report is to be given orally are quite limited. See pgs. 525-527.

Edited February 9, 2020 at 08:28 PM by Josh Martin

[Calion]

In Brief is highly misleading here, then, and should be changed to something like, "the minutes do not contain the reports of officers. Committee reports, however, must be entered into the minutes in full, unless they are submitted in writing."

[Dan Honemann]

38 minutes ago, Calion said:

In Brief is highly misleading here, then, and should be changed to something like, "the minutes do not contain the reports of officers. Committee reports, however, must be entered into the minutes in full, unless they are submitted in writing."

Nonsense.

[Calion]

1 hour ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Nonsense

Well, that was helpful. 

Certainly the impression that In Brief leaves is that committee reports are treated just as debate and as officer reports as far as the Secretary is concerned. This is far from the case—indeed the opposite of the case, as all committee reports must be entered in full into the record of the society. 

Though I'm not sure why. 

Edited February 9, 2020 at 11:22 PM by Calion

[Calion]

Let me be more clear: "The minutes do not include the contents of the reports of officers or committees, except as necessary to cover motions arising out of them" seems flatly false, or at least conveys an impression that is flatly false. Though I see no reason why that shouldn't be true; why are committee reports (including purely informational ones) treated so differently from officer reports?

Edited February 10, 2020 at 12:38 AM by Calion

[Rob Elsman]

I think Mr. Martin covered the bases for you in a most excellent way.

[Joshua Katz]

1 hour ago, Calion said:

Let me be more clear: "The minutes do not include the contents of the reports of officers or committees, except as necessary to cover motions arising out of them" seems flatly false, or at least conveys an impression that is flatly false. Though I see no reason why that shouldn't be true; why are committee reports (including purely informational ones) treated so differently from officer reports?

I think the missing link here is:

5 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

Furthermore, I would note that the circumstances under which a report is to be given orally are quite limited. See pgs. 525-527.

 

[Atul Kapur]

3 hours ago, Calion said:

all committee reports must be entered in full into the record of the society. 

No. Only those committee reports that are made orally. And, as Mr. Martin tried to tell you, extremely few committee reports are allowed to be presented orally. Go read pages 525-527 and see what those limited exceptions are before you repeat this blanket statement.

[Calion]

12 hours ago, Atul Kapur said:

No. Only those committee reports that are made orally.

No. Read what I wrote again. I didn't say, "all committee reports must be entered into the minutes."

In Brief does not state or imply that some reports should be treated differently from others, and that committee reports must always be entered in full into the records of the society. 

Indeed, it strongly implies the exact opposite; that committee reports be treated exactly as officer reports, and gives no indication otherwise. 

Nor do I see what would be wrong with this approach. 

Edited February 10, 2020 at 03:41 PM by Calion

[Josh Martin]

1 hour ago, Calion said:

No. Read what I wrote again. I didn't say, "all committee reports must be entered into the minutes."

In Brief does not state or imply that some reports should be treated differently from others, and that committee reports must always be entered in full into the records of the society. 

Indeed, it strongly implies the exact opposite; that committee reports be treated exactly as officer reports, and gives no indication otherwise. 

Nor do I see what would be wrong with this approach. 

As has been stated previously, only oral committee reports are included in the minutes, and the types of committee reports which may be made orally are extremely limited, as is explained on pgs. 525-527.

When you say that they are “entered in full into the records of the society,” I assume you are referring to the fact that written committee reports (while not entered into the minutes unless so ordered by the society) do become part of the Secretary’s records.

”To keep on file all committee reports.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 458)

”When written reports are received from boards or committees, the secretary should record on them the date they were received and what further action was taken on them, and preserve them among his records.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 460)

The question, apparently, is why the reports of boards and committees are (or appear to be) treated differently than the reports of officers. I agree that this is unusual, although I would suggest that the solution to this problem is to file written officer reports as well.

I suppose an organization is free to adopt rules providing that all written reports shall be tossed in the (literal or digital) garbage instead of being filed with the Secretary’s records if it wishes to do so. (Although if the organization truly believes these reports to be of such little value that they should not be recorded, perhaps the organization should consider whether these committees are necessary. Or at least consider ordering the committees to make less frequent reports.)

Edited February 10, 2020 at 05:25 PM by Josh Martin

[Weldon Merritt]

11 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

I suppose an organization is free to adopt rules providing that all written reports shall be tossed in the (literal or digital) garbage instead of being filed with the Secretary’s records if it wishes to do so.

Or, by the same token, an organization could adopt a rule that oral reports of officers be entered into the minutes. Or that written reports of officers and committeed be attached to the minutes.

The point is that if an organmziation thinks something should be done differently from what RONR specifies, it (usually) can adopt rules to override the RONR rule. Whether it should do so is another matter.

[Josh Martin]

20 minutes ago, Weldon Merritt said:

Or, by the same token, an organization could adopt a rule that oral reports of officers be entered into the minutes. Or that written reports of officers and committeed be attached to the minutes.

The point is that if an organmziation thinks something should be done differently from what RONR specifies, it (usually) can adopt rules to override the RONR rule. Whether it should do so is another matter.

I would note that the rule regarding oral reports not applying to officers makes perfect sense. The situations in which an oral report can be given (which are discussed in more detail on pgs. 525-527) all involve cases in which the committee is reporting on a motion or subject which was referred to the committee, which is not applicable to officers.

Edited February 10, 2020 at 05:55 PM by Josh Martin

[Weldon Merritt]

50 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

I would note that the rule regarding oral reports not applying to officers makes perfect sense. The situations in which an oral report can be given (which are discussed in more detail on pgs. 525-527) all involve cases in which the committee is reporting on a motion or subject which was referred to the committee, which is not applicable to officers.

Oh, I completely agree. I was just commenting that those who think RONR's don't make sense are free to adopt their own rules on the subject. 

[Dan Honemann]

2 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

The question, apparently, is why the reports of boards and committees are (or appear to be) treated differently than the reports of officers. I agree that this is unusual, although I would suggest that the solution to this problem is to file written officer reports as well.

RONR does say, on pages 476-77, that reports of officers "should generally conform to the rules as to form ... that govern committee reports", which, by my standards, means that officers' reports should be in writing.

[Calion]

2 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

The situations in which an oral report can be given (which are discussed in more detail on pgs. 525-527) all involve cases in which the committee is reporting on a motion or subject which was referred to the committee, which is not applicable to officers.

Yes, which means that committee reports that are in the nature of officer reports, such as "Mr. Smith reports that he has finished painting the clubhouse, as requested by the Society," must be handed in in writing.

Why that's a good idea, though…

[Calion]

Everyone seems to be missing the actual point here, which is that if one only reads In Brief, one will be left with an entirely false impression of how committee reports are treated.

The fact that one can use legalistic reasoning to show that In Brief can be interpreted such that it is not actually contradictory with RONR doesn't affect that.

[Calion]

2 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

although I would suggest that the solution to this problem is to file written officer reports as well.

And to record in full all oral officer reports in the minutes?

Edited February 10, 2020 at 08:02 PM by Calion

[Dan Honemann]

44 minutes ago, Calion said:

Everyone seems to be missing the actual point here, which is that if one only reads In Brief, one will be left with an entirely false impression of how committee reports are treated.

In Brief tells us that:

The minutes do not include the contents of the reports of officers or committees, except as may be necessary to cover motions arising out of them. An example of how the minutes should describe reports without motions is: "Reports were given by President Darian Will, Vice-President Roxana Arthur, Secretary Jolan Davis, Treasurer Jose Rhinehart, and Karen Wilson, Chairman, on behalf of the Education Committee." An example of how the minutes should treat a report with a motion is: "Dennis McAuliffe, reporting on behalf of the Membership Committee, moved ‘that Stacie Johnson be admitted to membership in the Society.'" 

What false impression of how committee reports are treated do you glean from this?

[Weldon Merritt]

30 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

In Brief tells us that:

The minutes do not include the contents of the reports of officers or committees, except as may be necessary to cover motions arising out of them. An example of how the minutes should describe reports without motions is: "Reports were given by President Darian Will, Vice-President Roxana Arthur, Secretary Jolan Davis, Treasurer Jose Rhinehart, and Karen Wilson, Chairman, on behalf of the Education Committee." An example of how the minutes should treat a report with a motion is: "Dennis McAuliffe, reporting on behalf of the Membership Committee, moved ‘that Stacie Johnson be admitted to membership in the Society.'" 

What false impression of how committee reports are treated do you glean from this?

Calion's concern seems to be that In Brief does not mention anything about including oral committee reports in the minutes. But given that there are so few instances when oral reports are  proper, sayimg that In Brief gives "an entirely false impression of how committee reports are treated" is a bit of a stretch. If In Brief included all of the details for everything it covers, it would no longer be "brief." That's why it includes references to the full RONR where all of the details are covered.

[Calion]

2 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

What false impression of how committee reports are treated do you glean from this?

Are you joking? Anyone not familiar with RONR p. 511/525–7 will obviously conclude from this that a) committee reports, like officer's reports, may routinely be given orally, and b) like officer's reports, when they are given, whether written or orally, they should not be included in the minutes. 

Edited February 10, 2020 at 10:51 PM by Calion

[Calion]

1 hour ago, Weldon Merritt said:

Calion's concern seems to be that In Brief does not mention anything about including oral committee reports in the minutes.

Indeed, since In Brief says—without noting any exceptions or mentioning anywhere (even in the section on committee reports on p. 164–5) that committee reports should almost always be submitted in writing—that "the minutes do not contain the reports of…committees," I don't see how you can say In Brief is accurate on this point, without legalistic convolutions of the sort anathema to the purpose of In Brief. 

1 hour ago, Weldon Merritt said:

If In Brief included all of the details for everything it covers, it would no longer be "brief."

Yes, but can you point to anything else in In Brief where, if one follows the plain meaning of the instructions therein, one will be behaving wrongly according to RONR?

Edited February 10, 2020 at 11:00 PM by Calion

[Josh Martin]

18 hours ago, Calion said:

And to record in full all oral officer reports in the minutes?

No, because as I have already noted, there are no circumstances under which it is appropriate for an officer report to be made orally.

In my view, even if a society permits oral reports to be made in other circumstances, it seems to me that it is still the case that only oral reports of the nature described in pgs. 525-527 should be recorded in the minutes, unless the society adopts other rules on this matter

Finally, even if RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 525-527 are ignored for some reason, RONR, 11th ed., pg. 511 quite clearly states that an oral report is permitted (and recorded) only if “it is brief enough that the secretary can record its complete substance in the minutes.” Unless the Secretary is a very fast typist or has a very good memory, this will generally be limited to very brief reports. (I suppose the society can adopt other rules on this matter as well, but if so, one hopes for the Secretary’s sake that they give him a recording device and one or more assistants.)

I would also note that in the case of committees, if the society intends to accept oral reports (other than those mentioned on pgs. 525-527), as the report of the committee, this will likely require modification of the rule that committee reports must be approved by the committee (unless the reporting member can somehow memorize what was approved). The society would likely need to adopt a special rule of order providing that only the general ideas expressed in the report (and not the actual words) need to be approved by the committee, or even that the chair can just report whatever he wants, and that only committee recommendations must be approved by the committee.

In the absence of such rules, if an oral report is given (except as described on pgs. 525-527), this is not a proper report, and therefore no mention whatsoever in the minutes or other records of the society is required.

As for the statement in In Brief which says “the minutes do not contain the reports of…committees,” this statement is true 99% of the time, but if one is a stickler I suppose it could be amended to say “(except in very obscure circumstances, see RONR for more details).” A report is only included in the minutes if it is an oral report of the sort described on pgs. 525-527 or if the assembly specifically orders that it be included.

Edited February 11, 2020 at 02:31 PM by Josh Martin

[Dan Honemann]

12 minutes ago, Calion said:

Are you joking? Anyone not familiar with RONR p. 511/525–7 will obviously conclude from this that a) committee reports, like officer's reports, may routinely be given orally, and b) when they are given, whether written or orally, they should not be included in the minutes. 

But that quote from In Brief deals with what is or is not to be included in the minutes, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the question as to whether or not reports should be in writing. I can't imagine how one might conclude from it that "committee reports, like officer's reports, may routinely be given orally", and yes, it means what it says about what should and what should not be included in the minutes.

[Weldon Merritt]

46 minutes ago, Calion said:

Yes, but can you point to anything else in In Brief where, if one follows the plain meaning of the instructions therein, one will be behaving wrongly according to RONR?

I don't agree that "if one follows the plain meaning of the instructions therein, one will be behaving wrongly according to RONR." The text seems pretty clear to me, and apparently to everyone else who has repsonded to this thread.