Counting vote of a member that then revokes membership

[Guest Joshua Hesterberg]

We have a situation where a member cast their vote on a topic before the final date of the voting period (absentee voting is allowed in our by-laws), however this member decided to revoke their membership before the end of the voting period.  Does the vote of this member still count regarding this topic?

To phrase it another way, in case it is unclear:

A vote is open, a member cast their vote and then revokes his membership before the counting/announcement of the result has taken place.

Does this vote count?  If it doesn´t count but is not taken out of the ballot, will that invalidate the vote altogether?

[Josh Martin]

24 minutes ago, Guest Joshua Hesterberg said:

We have a situation where a member cast their vote on a topic before the final date of the voting period (absentee voting is allowed in our by-laws), however this member decided to revoke their membership before the end of the voting period.  Does the vote of this member still count regarding this topic?

To phrase it another way, in case it is unclear:

A vote is open, a member cast their vote and then revokes his membership before the counting/announcement of the result has taken place.

Does this vote count?  If it doesn´t count but is not taken out of the ballot, will that invalidate the vote altogether?

It seems to me that the vote does count, since the person in question was a member at the time the vote was cast.

I would note that even in the event the vote did not count, this would not affect the validity of the ballot vote unless that single vote could have changed the outcome.

[Gary Novosielski]

I saw a recent story regarding mail-in voting in public elections.  Ballots of people who had died after mailing their ballots but before election day were removed, presumably in accordance with state law.

Those intent on lobbying against absentee voting spread the story that x-hundred dead people had voted, and this was evidence of fraud.  The truth was that the votes were legally cast, and the problem ballots were detected and removed.  No fraud occurred.

[Josh Martin]

8 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

I saw a recent story regarding mail-in voting in public elections.  Ballots of people who had died after mailing their ballots but before election day were removed, presumably in accordance with state law.

Those intent on lobbying against absentee voting spread the story that x-hundred dead people had voted, and this was evidence of fraud.  The truth was that the votes were legally cast, and the problem ballots were detected and removed.  No fraud occurred.

Okay, but getting back to the original question asked, what should be done if, in an ordinary society which uses RONR and has no rule on this subject, a member casts a vote and subsequently terminates his membership prior to the close of the polls?

[Gary Novosielski]

7 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

Okay, but getting back to the original question asked, what should be done if, in an ordinary society which uses RONR and has no rule on this subject, a member casts a vote and subsequently terminates his membership prior to the close of the polls?

That's a good question.  I don't know of anything in RONR that speaks directly to the issue, except to say that the assembly decides all questions about the validity of any questionable ballots.  

This may be a situation where the question should be put to the assembly to decide.  I think this is a question on which people can, in good faith, disagree, absent some rule or custom.

Personally I tend to think the vote should not be counted.  RONR provides that before the result is announced a member has the right to change his vote.  A case could be made that by resigning, the ex-member effectively requested that his vote be changed to an abstention.

Edited August 21, 2020 at 02:48 AM by Gary Novosielski

[Richard Brown]

Well I agree that the decision may ultimately be up to the assembly, my own opinion is that the vote should count. I’m not sure, but I think the same rule applies in a public municipal or state election were a voter casts an absentee or mail vote and then dies before voting ends. I think the ballot generally counts as it was a legitimate vote at the time it was cast. Heck, what if the voter dies on election day just moments after casting his ballot in person? It still counts. I think the key is whether the member had the right to cast the vote at the time he cast it.

Edited August 21, 2020 at 01:04 PM by Richard Brown
Added last sentence

[George Mervosh]

What if, at a convention of delegates, it's time to vote for the officers, but the vote will be conducted and tabulated outside of the meeting (quite similar to what NAP has done in the past), and Joe Delegate shows his credential, votes, then immediately drops his credentials off at the desk and leaves the convention for good and is no longer a delegate?  Does his vote count even though he's not a member of the convention when the results are announced later in a meeting?  I think so, for sure.  He was a member when his vote was cast.

[Josh Martin]

1 hour ago, Richard Brown said:

Well I agree that the decision may ultimately be up to the assembly, my own opinion is that the vote should count. I’m not sure, but I think the same rule applies in a public municipal or state election were a voter casts an absentee or mail vote and then dies before voting ends. I think the ballot generally counts as it was a legitimate vote at the time it was cast. Heck, what if the voter dies on election day just moments after casting his ballot in person? It still counts. I think the key is whether the member had the right to cast the vote at the time he cast it.

I would caution against the part which says "the same rule applies in a public municipal or state election were a voter casts an absentee or mail vote and then dies before voting ends." Rules for public municipal or state elections vary from state to state, including this rule in particular (see, for instance, this article).

Rules for public municipal or state elections aside, I agree that in an ordinary society which uses RONR and has no rule of its own on this subject, a vote should be counted if the member had the right to vote at the time the vote was cast.

Edited August 21, 2020 at 02:20 PM by Josh Martin

[Guest Joshua Hesterberg]

Thank you for the good input and insight that we have to consider.  So far I am hearing arguments for both sides, but that there is no clear cut "official" procedure unless if this specific situation is covered in the by-laws (which it is not in our case).
I look forward to seeing what further comments come. 

[Dan Honemann]

Chalk it up as a valid vote.  

[Atul Kapur]

I agree with Mr. Honemann, Mr. Martin, and, I believe, Mr. Brown and Mr. Mervosh.

Count the vote.

[AFS1970]

I think the voter who dies is clearly different from the voter who resigns. The Voter who dies gave no indication they would not have stayed a member if it were up to them. The voter who resigns has indicated that they no longer want to be part of the organization. That being said, if the voting is actually conducted in a secret manner, I am not sure how one can tell who cast any specific ballot.

As for the dead voting in public elections, my state had an interesting case of that (sort of) where the courts said they could not rule on the issue that it was a matter for the legislature. Our state legislature has so far failed to address the issue. 

[Richard Brown]

A distinction which can be made between voting by mail or absentee in public (governmental) elections and voting absentee or by mail in an organization having a period of several days for voting is that in the government election, there is a date certain "election day".  Voters who vote prior to election day are, well, casting an "early" vote prior to the actual election.  They are voting prior to the election day. But, in the voluntary organization having voting take place over a period of several days, the voter who votes on day 2 of a 3-day voting period has cast his ballot DURING the three days of voting, rather than PRIOR TO election day.  There were three "election days" rather than one.

Perhaps I haven't expressed myself well, but if the member was a member entitled to vote on the date he cast his vote, in my opinion his vote should be counted regardless of whether he subsequently resigns, dies, or is expelled. He didn't  vote prior to election day: he voted ON one of the three election days.

 

[Josh Martin]

25 minutes ago, AFS1970 said:

That being said, if the voting is actually conducted in a secret manner, I am not sure how one can tell who cast any specific ballot.

It seems the vote is being conducted by mail or some other means of absentee voting. If the organization is using the double-envelope method in RONR, then the outer envelopes are not opened until the tellers committee meets. The outer envelope would indicate the identity of the voter.

Although it seems that the organization might not be able to tell, since the OP asks "If it doesn't count but is not taken out of the ballot, will that invalidate the vote altogether?" 

The rule on pg. 416 states what to do next depending on whether the ballot can be identified, although as I have previously indicated, I believe the vote is valid.

"If one or more ballots are identifiable as cast by persons not entitled to vote, these ballots are excluded in determining the number of votes cast for purposes of computing the majority. If there is evidence that any unidentifiable ballots were cast by persons not entitled to vote, and if there is any possibility that such ballots might affect the result, the entire ballot vote is null and void, and a new ballot vote must be taken." (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 416)

30 minutes ago, AFS1970 said:

I think the voter who dies is clearly different from the voter who resigns. The Voter who dies gave no indication they would not have stayed a member if it were up to them. The voter who resigns has indicated that they no longer want to be part of the organization.

Nonetheless, the fact that the person "has indicated that they no longer want to be part of the organization" has no effect on the validity of the actions the person took while still part of the organization.

[Gary Novosielski]

15 hours ago, AFS1970 said:

That being said, if the voting is actually conducted in a secret manner, I am not sure how one can tell who cast any specific ballot.

If advance absentee voting is used, as appears to be the case here, it should be easy to identify the voter, even though that vote would remain secret.  This is necessary to allow the verification that a ballot received was actually from a valid member eligible to vote, and that the ballot is not a duplicate.

In my state , for public elections a two-envelope system is used.  The outer envelope contains a signature and identifying information that allows the vote to be checked against the rolls, and that member checked off as having voted once.  Illegal votes are removed at that time.

When it is time for the votes to be counted, the outer envelopes containing valid ballots are opened and the inner envelopes, which contain no identifying information, are placed in a pile, afterward they are opened for counting.  This satisfies the key requirements of a ballot vote: 

• Ensuring that the ballot is a valid one from an eligible voter.
• Ensuring that no member votes more than once
• Ensuring that the vote of each member is secret.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2020 at 04:43 PM by Gary Novosielski