Election ended in a tie

[Guest Wave Wound]

Hi all,

Elections for 3 delegates ended with the 2nd and 3rd positions tied. Secret balloting.

1. I can understand balloting continues until 3 candidates receive the most votes.  Are all members able to vote, even if they voted in the first ballot ?

2. Again, I understand balloting continues. Although necessary, no provisions were made to accomodate for this “extra” polling date. Are the members to be notified of the results of the first ballot before the second ballot takes place ?

Thanks for your time

[Guest Puzzling]

1 hour ago, Guest Wave Wound said:

Hi all,

Elections for 3 delegates ended with the 2nd and 3rd positions tied. Secret balloting.

1. I can understand balloting continues until 3 candidates receive the most votes.  Are all members able to vote, even if they voted in the first ballot ?

2. Again, I understand balloting continues. Although necessary, no provisions were made to accomodate for this “extra” polling date. Are the members to be notified of the results of the first ballot before the second ballot takes place ?

Thanks for your time

First of all was this an election during a meeting (RONR has rules for that) or for an election by mail (RONR states that you have to state the rules in your bylaws and give suggestions) or a combination (RONR states don't do that) ?

If it was during a meeting and the RONR  rules apply: (selection for more details see chapter 14 ( XIV ) of RONR 

- a candidate needs a majority vote to be elected (most votes might not be enough) 

- write in candidates are allowed 

- repeated elections (at the same meeting)  till all places  are filled. No need to set new date)

- no cumulative voting. 

So in your case

On the ballot members may write the names of up to 3 different candidates .

After counting the ballots:

candidates that are mentioned on a majority of the ballots are elected (there can never be more than 3 of them)

if not all posts are filled the same procedure for the unfilled posts.

 

If you use mail in voting RONR suggests STV (single transferable vote) but you need to have spelled this out in your bylaws) 

[Richard Brown]

6 hours ago, Guest Wave Wound said:

Elections for 3 delegates ended with the 2nd and 3rd positions tied. Secret balloting.

1. I can understand balloting continues until 3 candidates receive the most votes.  Are all members able to vote, even if they voted in the first ballot ?

Yes. 

6 hours ago, Guest Wave Wound said:

. Are the members to be notified of the results of the first ballot before the second ballot

Yes. 

You didn’t say whether the candidate with the most votes was elected. Was he? If so, he has been elected and does not remain on subsequent ballots.

Edired to add: just to be clear, balloting continues until each of three candidate receives a majority of the votes, not just the most votes, unless your bylaws provide to the contrary.  A plurality (the most votes but less than a majority) never elects someone to office unless they bylaws specifically so provide.
 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 at 12:58 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Joshua Katz]

7 hours ago, Guest Wave Wound said:

Are all members able to vote, even if they voted in the first ballot ?

Short answer - yes. Longer answer - the fact that this question is being asked this way makes me want to know more about how this election was conducted before being definitive.

[Guest Wave Wound]

I want to thank everyone for the replies, I don’t know much about these rules so far but your answers are clear in simple.
 

This election, as per our bylaws, is to be held at a meeting. A decision has been made to do it remotely, having a set date to poll and notifying the members accordingly. Results are mailed out to notify the membership of the results.

 

Key facts from your points:

- After the first ballot, the results are to be announced, regardless of the existence of a second ballot, third ballot, etc.

- A majority vote is required unless specified otherwise

- every member has a vote during this “second round”, even if they have already voted during the first round

- In an election where multiple candidates are selected for one office, and where a ties occur between candidates at a lower bracket(let’s say 3 and 4 tie), the members that already have the most vote are elected and do not stay on the ballots

I appreciate your incredible wealth of knowledge on these topics, but I will be part of the decision process and I will also take part in updating our bylaws to better fit Robert’s Rules. If possible, can I get references to validate these points?

Thanks again

 

[Bruce Lages]

13 minutes ago, Guest Wave Wound said:

In an election where multiple candidates are selected for one office, and where a ties occur between candidates at a lower bracket(let’s say 3 and 4 tie), the members that already have the most vote are elected and do not stay on the ballots

To be elected,  a candidate needs a majority (more than half) of the votes cast, not just the most votes. If this is an election for officers, only a bylaw-level rule can allow a plurality of votes to elect a candidate; for other than officers a special rule of order will suffice. And yes, any candidate that receives a majority of votes is elected and therefore not included on subsequent ballots

[Atul Kapur]

19 minutes ago, Guest Wave Wound said:

- In an election where multiple candidates are selected for one office, and where a ties occur between candidates at a lower bracket(let’s say 3 and 4 tie), the members that already have the most vote are elected and do not stay on the ballots

If the candidates who were in the first and second positions have received a majority of the votes cast, they are declared elected and do not stay on the next ballot. If only one of them received a majority, that person is declared elected and you are running the second ballot with two positions open.

6 hours ago, Guest Puzzling said:

After counting the ballots:

candidates that are mentioned on a majority of the ballots are elected (there can never be more than 3 of them)

It is unclear what you are saying. It is very possible with a multiple candidate election for three positions that more than three will receive a majority of ballots cast. That is why RONR (12th ed.) 46:33 says, "If more candidates receive such a majority vote than there are positions to fill, then the chair declares the candidates elected in order of their vote totals, starting with the candidate who received the largest number of votes and continuing until every position is filled."

6 hours ago, Guest Puzzling said:

If you use mail in voting RONR suggests STV (single transferable vote)

There are significant differences between STV (depending on the details of the system used) and the preferential ballot described in RONR, which is more akin to Instant Runoff Voting (IRV).

 

[Guest Puzzling]

40 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

It is unclear what you are saying. It is very possible with a multiple candidate election for three positions that more than three will receive a majority of ballots cast

I did not refer to the number of ballots cast for a candidate,  I refer to:

candidates that are mentioned on a majority of the ballots are elected (there can never be more than 3 of them)

The difference it that one ballot with two votes for candidate A in my system only counts as one ballot for candidate A.

And really no more than 3 can get a majority this way. (Try it out)

You are right it is more like IRV.

RONR does not really in detail describe how to do multiple similar post voting (outside arguing against cumulative voting and that the longest terms go to the highest majorities)

IRV is on Wikipedia also only described for electing one officer.

I am puzzling about a better text for multiple identical post voting  but not there yet.

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Atul Kapur said:

It is very possible with a multiple candidate election for three positions that more than three will receive a majority of ballots cast.

 

18 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

And really no more than 3 can get a majority this way. (Try it out)

Five Candidates (A to E), Five voters (i to v), three positions.

Voter i votes for A,B, and C
Voter ii votes for B, C, and D
and so on, with Voter v voting for E, A, and B

Each candidate receives 3 votes, a majority of the five ballots cast.

[Guest Puzzling]

1 hour ago, Atul Kapur said:

 

Five Candidates (A to E), Five voters (i to v), three positions.

Voter i votes for A,B, and C
Voter ii votes for B, C, and D
and so on, with Voter v voting for E, A, and B

Each candidate receives 3 votes, a majority of the five ballots cast.

Oops back to the drawing board. 🧩

[Gary Novosielski]

4 hours ago, Guest Wave Wound said:

In an election where multiple candidates are selected for one office, and where a ties occur between candidates at a lower bracket(let’s say 3 and 4 tie), the members that already have the most vote are elected and do not stay on the ballots

No, that's still shy of the truth.  The members that already have the most votes are elected if and only if they received votes on more than half of the ballots cast. A vote of less than a majority never elects, if the rules in RONR apply.

Any candidates that are elected on the first ballot are dropped from the second (and possibly subsequent) ballots.

Edited March 15, 2021 at 06:56 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Guest Wave Wound]

Thank you all for the replies, I got all the clarifications I needed