Proxies or alternates for committee members (was "ex-officio voting")

[Guest Sasha]

We have 2 students reps on a university governance committee that are both sick and want to send a single student to attend a meeting in their place. Is that substitute student allowed to vote on behalf of both reps or would they only be allowed to vote for 1 of the students?

Thanks!

Edited March 17, 2021 at 10:40 PM by Shmuel Gerber
Changed the topic title

[Guest Sasha]

I mistyped the subject, it should be proxy voting, not ex-officio voting

[Richard Brown]

Unless the bylaws or governing documents permit substitutions and permit them to vote,, The substitutes cannot vote at all. The rules may be suspended to permit them to make motions and participate in debate, but the rules cannot be suspended to permit nonmembers to vote unless the governing documents permit it. 

[Richard Brown]

Just now, Guest Sasha said:

I mistyped the subject, it should be proxy voting, not ex-officio voting

This depends upon your own bylaws and rules. The use of proxies is prohibited by RONR unless the governing documents permit them or the law of the state requires it. Any provisions governing the use of proxies and what a proxy holder may do will have to be determined by your own rules and by the language of the proxies themselves.

[Guest Sasha]

Our Constitution does not refer specifically to ex-officio voting it does state that the rules contained in the most recent edition of Robert's Rules of Order shall govern the Council in all cases in which they are applicable and in which they are not inconsistent with the Bylaws. Our Bylaws are silent on this subject. 

The committee chair that is asking this question serves on a standing committee of our council. In past practice this question has come up to our Speaker of Council and that person made the final decision on whether or not a provy vote was allowed. 

 

[Richard Brown]

I understand. However, the rule in RONR is clear: proxies are not permitted unless authorized in the constitution or bylaws or required by state law.  RONR §45:56 and 45:70 - 45:71 (12th Ed.)

 

Edited March 17, 2021 at 03:56 PM by Richard Brown
Added citation to 45:70 - 45:71

[Guest Sasha]

Our Bylaws are silent on this topic. Our Constitution states that: "The rules contained in the most recent edition of Robert's Rules shall govern the Council in all cases in which they are applicable in and in which they are not inconsistent with the Bylaws and any special rules of order the Council may adopt". The chair that is asking this question is the chair of a standing committee of our Council. I will take your response to mean that proxy voting isn't allowed under Robert's Rules. For past Council meetings voting members have had to submit their request for proxy voting to the Speaker who approves or does not approve the proxy voting. 

[Rob Elsman]

Proxy voting violates a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that voting is limited to members who are actually present in the meeting room or area during a legal meeting.  RONR (12th ed.) 45:56.  This rule cannot be suspended, so anything to the contrary would have to be provided for in the governing documents.

[Guest Sasha]

Thanks so much Richard. The chair has a follow-up question: 

 

Can the student attending be viewed as a substitute representative instead of as a vote by proxy?

 

I'm not familiar with a substitute rep and I'm assuming that they would not be entitled to a vote either? 

[Rob Elsman]

If the bylaws provide for alternate members, they are allowed; otherwise, not.

[Atul Kapur]

40 minutes ago, Guest Sasha said:

Can the student attending be viewed as a substitute representative instead of as a vote by proxy?

 

I'm not familiar with a substitute rep and I'm assuming that they would not be entitled to a vote either? 

I believe that was covered by this answer:

1 hour ago, Richard Brown said:

The substitutes cannot vote at all. The rules may be suspended to permit them to make motions and participate in debate, but the rules cannot be suspended to permit nonmembers to vote unless the governing documents permit it. 

 

[Guest Sasha]

Thanks very much everyone! That was very helpful.