Voting on a fill-in blank

[Zippo]

 

Suppose you have four options for a blank in some motion. Only one option can be selected to fill the blank.

When the vote is taken-

Can every member vote on every option, including voting yes on several of the options?
eg                            OR
    A 3-7                   A 7-3
    B 5-5                   B 5-5
    C 4-6                   C 6-4
    D 2-8                   D 8-2

Can every member vote yes for only one of the options?
(this would imply a no vote for the options they do not want)
eg 
    A 2-8
    B 3-7
    C 1-9
    D 4-6
Total yes = 10 = # members voting

If no option gets a majority, then what do you do?

If more than one option gets a majority, then what do you do?

How & when does that rule that the first option to obtain a majority wins apply?

[Dan Honemann]

40 minutes ago, Zippo said:

 

Suppose you have four options for a blank in some motion. Only one option can be selected to fill the blank.

When the vote is taken-

Can every member vote on every option, including voting yes on several of the options?
eg                            OR
    A 3-7                   A 7-3
    B 5-5                   B 5-5
    C 4-6                   C 6-4
    D 2-8                   D 8-2

Can every member vote yes for only one of the options?
(this would imply a no vote for the options they do not want)
eg 
    A 2-8
    B 3-7
    C 1-9
    D 4-6
Total yes = 10 = # members voting

If no option gets a majority, then what do you do?

If more than one option gets a majority, then what do you do?

How & when does that rule that the first option to obtain a majority wins apply?

If the vote is taken by one of the regular methods (voice, rising, or show of hands), as soon as one of the suggestions receives a majority vote the chair declares that the blank is filled, and no vote is taken on any remaining suggestions.

[Weldon Merritt]

Mr. Honemann has given you the correct answer according to RONR. (No surprise there.)

I will add that the rules could be suspended to provide for taking a vote on all suggestions, so that members can vote yes or no on each one. If that method is followed, and more than one suggestion receives a majority, the one with the highest majority fills the blank. Of course, this method takes a lot longer and probably would require a counted vote on each suggestion.

[Guest Puzzling]

49 minutes ago, Zippo said:

 

Suppose you have four options for a blank in some motion. Only one option can be selected to fill the blank.

When the vote is taken-

Can every member vote on every option, including voting yes on several of the options?
eg                            OR
    A 3-7                   A 7-3
    B 5-5                   B 5-5
    C 4-6                   C 6-4
    D 2-8                   D 8-2

Can every member vote yes for only one of the options?
(this would imply a no vote for the options they do not want)
eg 
    A 2-8
    B 3-7
    C 1-9
    D 4-6
Total yes = 10 = # members voting

If no option gets a majority, then what do you do?

If more than one option gets a majority, then what do you do?

How & when does that rule that the first option to obtain a majority wins apply?

RONR says that the first option that gets a majority is selected.

So the selected option  does depends on the  sequence in which the alternatives are put to a vote and there are rules for that as well.

If no alternative gets a majority just start again till one does. (If needed after a round where no alternative gets a majority, debate can start again, debate may not occur between the votes of alternatives in the same round)

 

[Dan Honemann]

Or a motion could be made to take the vote by ballot or by roll call, which would require no suspension of the rules.

[Zippo]

14 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

If the vote is taken by one of the regular methods (voice, rising, or show of hands), as soon as one of the suggestions receives a majority vote the chair declares that the blank is filled, and no vote is taken on any remaining suggestions.

Is it implicit that every member can vote - yea or nay - for each and every option?

Or is it implicit that each member can only vote yea on only one of the options?

[Dan Honemann]

5 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

If no alternative gets a majority just start again till one does.

I don't think so. If the vote is taken by one of the regular methods, suggestions that have been rejected cannot be voted on again by one of the regular methods. 

 

2 minutes ago, Zippo said:

Is it implicit that every member can vote - yea or nay - for each and every option?

Or is it implicit that each member can only vote yea on only one of the options?

Neither is correct.

[Zippo]

6 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

If the vote is taken by one of the regular methods, suggestions that have been rejected cannot be voted on again by one of the regular methods. 

I must be missing something here. What do you mean by 'rejected'?

For example, if every member votes yea or nay for each option and none of them get a majority, then you can't revote or throw out the lowest one?

[Rob Elsman]

If none of the suggestions is adopted, there follows another round of voting--and again, and again, until a suggestion is adopted.

[Dan Honemann]

Lets assume that the names of A, B, C, and D are suggested for filling a blank with a single name. The chair take a voice vote on A, and the noes have it. A has been rejected. The chair then takes a voice vote on B and the ayes have it. The chair declares that the blank has been filled with B's name, and no further votes are taken.

[Dan Honemann]

11 minutes ago, Rob Elsman said:

If none of the suggestions is adopted, there follows another round of voting--and again, and again, until a suggestion is adopted.

I think Mr. Elsman is assuming that the vote was taken either by ballot or by roll call.

[Zippo]

3 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Lets assume that the names of A, B, C, and D are suggested for filling a blank with a single name. The chair take a voice vote on A, and the noes have it. A has been rejected. The chair then takes a voice vote on B and the ayes have it. The chair declares that the blank has been filled with B's name, and no further votes are taken.

What happens if the noes have it for A, B, C and D?

 

[Rob Elsman]

Even if the vote is by the viva voce method, the rejection of all the suggestions, which is certainly possible, means that the suggestions have to be put to vote again ( and again, until one of the suggestions is adopted).  Once one of the suggestions is adopted, the voting stops, and all remaining suggestions are not put to vote.

[Zippo]

Is a counted vote by raising hands with a stipulation that you can only vote yes for one of the options equivalent to a ballot or roll-call vote, where the ballot or roll-call vote means you vote for a particular option?

[Weldon Merritt]

1 hour ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Or a motion could be made to take the vote by ballot or by roll call, which would require no suspension of the rules.

Would that not still require a suspension of the rules if the intent is to allow members to vote for or against every option? 

[Dan Honemann]

1 hour ago, Rob Elsman said:

Even if the vote is by the viva voce method, the rejection of all the suggestions, which is certainly possible, means that the suggestions have to be put to vote again ( and again, until one of the suggestions is adopted). 

I respectfully disagree. Once the assembly has voted by voice vote that A's name shall not fill the blank, it will not be in order to vote again in the same manner on the question as to whether or not his name shall fill the blank. 

[Guest Puzzling]

1 hour ago, Weldon Merritt said:

Would that not still require a suspension of the rules if the intent is to allow members to vote for or against every option? 

Under normal situations that is already allowed (in my opinion, hope that DHH agrees)

 

2 hours ago, Rob Elsman said:

If none of the suggestions is adopted, there follows another round of voting--and again, and again, until a suggestion is adopted.

That is what I thought but (our great leader) DHH wrote:

 

2 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

2 hours ago, Guest Puzzling said:

If no alternative gets a majority just start again till one does.

I don't think so. If the vote is taken by one of the regular methods, suggestions that have been rejected cannot be voted on again by one of the regular methods

And we as always accept his ruling, but what if all alternatives are rejected? (And the motion with the black is more or less adopted) 

Or is re-doing the election only in an officers election and not for other filling of blanks?

[Dan Honemann]

17 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

Or is re-doing the election only in an officers election and not for other filling of blanks?

In conducting a ballot election of officers, voting must continue until the open positions have been filled. This is because the assembly has already decided that these positions must be filled. The equivalent situation arises when the device of filling blanks is being utilized only when a motion has been adopted with an unfilled blank.

[Rob Elsman]

What Mr. Honemann and I are focusing on is RONR (12th ed.) 12:102.  At my own peril, I disagree with his interpretation (with my luck, he's the very one who wrote the words!).  His interpretation implies that all suggestions are eliminated if none of them receives a majority vote in the first round of voting, using the viva voce method of voting.  I cannot draw that interpretation out of the language of 12:102.  I think the paragraph must be understood as meaning that all suggestions are retained and a second (third, fourth...) round of voting is conducted until one of the suggestions receives a majority vote.

Concerning an election using the viva voce method of voting, RONR (12th ed.) 46:38, the same principle applies.  If none of the candidates receives a majority vote in the first round of voting, all candidates are retained, and a second (third, fourth...) round of voting is conducted until a candidate receives a majority vote, and the rest of the candidates in the list are ignored.

I see nothing in either place in the book that implies suggestions or candidates are eliminated because they did not receive a majority vote in the first round of voting, using the viva voce method of voting.  Indeed, I would find that appalling, since the electors would not have the opportunity to coalesce around one suggestion or candidate on later rounds, all the suggestions or candidates having been eliminated.

[Dan Honemann]

I repeat. Filling banks is equivalent to an election only when a motion has been adopted with an unfilled blank, which very seldom occurs.

[Zippo]

6 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

I repeat. Filling banks is equivalent to an election only when a motion has been adopted with an unfilled blank, which very seldom occurs.

So what do you do if none of the options get a majority?

[Rob Elsman]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what you're saying in the book itself.  I must have read 12:102 a million times over the years, but I would never have dreamed of what you are saying.

[Dan Honemann]

3 minutes ago, Zippo said:

So what do you do if none of the options get a majority?

Open the floor for other suggestions.

[Zippo]

3 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Open the floor for other suggestions.

With all due respect for your expertise on this subject matter, what you have said in this thread may not make sense in the real world. 

Let's say the 4 options were voted on in some order and none of them got a majority. Say it was all 5-5 for each one of them. You are saying that not one of them can be considered 'for other suggestions' because they have been 'rejected' by the assembly. In reality, they are the top 4 choices for this fill-in-the-blank. 

IOW, you are saying that the assembly should consider choices 5, 6 and 7, (E, F & G)when the assembly knows and agrees that choices 1-4 (A-D) are the better choices.

 

[Rob Elsman]

If suggestions to paint the barn are green, yellow, and red, and I most favor red, I will vote "no" on green and yellow in order to maximize the chance that red is reached and I can vote "yes" on it.  Nevertheless, with a second round, I would be willing to vote "yes" on green and, if reached, red in order to minimize the chances of ending up with a yellow barn.  What Mr. Honemann is saying is that the barn might end up neither red nor green--maybe it will be pink.

I just don't see this in the book.