The President is changing the classification of the department meeting.

[ssj1203]

Our department holds two meetings per month.

1st Tuesday is Administrative & Department business. (Regular Meeting)

2nd Tuesday is Drill & Maintenance. (Drill-no Agenda or Minutes)

Every 3rd month (Quarterly) there is a county meeting instead of the 1st Tuesday meeting (Administrative Regular Meeting) and we don't have a regular department meeting.

The President changed the classification of the drill to a regular meeting so he could address business at the Drill instead of waiting until the next meeting in 2 1/2 weeks. He has posted the Agenda that should be discussed at the 1st Tuesday monthly meeting.  Is this permissible?  

2nd Question:  Can the President not allow a department's request to be put on the Agenda if the request is in writing prior to the meeting?

3rd Question:  Can the President allow certain members the right to vote if they are still on the roster?

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/23/2022 at 2:27 PM, ssj1203 said:

The President changed the classification of the drill to a regular meeting so he could address business at the Drill instead of waiting until the next meeting in 2 1/2 weeks. He has posted the Agenda that should be discussed at the 1st Tuesday monthly meeting.  Is this permissible?  

 

Do the bylaws establish this meeting schedule? If not, where is it established?

On 5/23/2022 at 2:27 PM, ssj1203 said:

2nd Question:  Can the President not allow a department's request to be put on the Agenda if the request is in writing prior to the meeting?

 

If the rules in RONR apply, the president does not control the agenda. He drafts a proposed agenda, but items can be added at the meeting before the agenda is adopted (by a majority vote) or after (by a 2/3 vote).

On 5/23/2022 at 2:27 PM, ssj1203 said:

3rd Question:  Can the President allow certain members the right to vote if they are still on the roster?

I'm not sure I understand this one. Why would being on the roster mean they can't vote?

[ssj1203]

#3 - I apologize.  Will restate question...  The President is trying to remove members from the roster.  Are they allowed to vote on their own behalf to remain in the membership?  As long as they are part of the membership, they should have the right to vote, correct?  

 

#1 - Earlier Bylaws had the meeting schedule in them, but apparently it was omitted from the last rewriting.  The schedule has remained the same for 30 years, so it is my guess that it is permissible as it isn't written in the latest Bylaws, correct?  

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/23/2022 at 8:52 PM, ssj1203 said:

#3 - I apologize.  Will restate question...  The President is trying to remove members from the roster.  Are they allowed to vote on their own behalf to remain in the membership?  As long as they are part of the membership, they should have the right to vote, correct?  

 

What disciplinary procedures are you following? Are you following those in RONR, those in your own bylaws, or is your president simply making them up? 

On 5/23/2022 at 8:52 PM, ssj1203 said:

#1 - Earlier Bylaws had the meeting schedule in them, but apparently it was omitted from the last rewriting.  The schedule has remained the same for 30 years, so it is my guess that it is permissible as it isn't written in the latest Bylaws, correct?  

So your current bylaws do not tell you when or how often to meet. Do any other rules, such as standing rules? If not, you're basically making this up, and so it's hard to see how to address the question whether the president can call a meeting at a given time.

And, by the way, I think that's the right way to think about it. Your drills shouldn't be thought of as meetings without business, but rather as not meetings. Meetings are for the purpose of conducting business. What separates drills from meetings is not the absence of minutes or agenda, but the fact that they are called to practice certain skills, not to conduct business. (Unless, of course, your drills are very different from what I am envisioning.)

[George Mervosh]

On 5/23/2022 at 8:52 PM, ssj1203 said:

#1 - Earlier Bylaws had the meeting schedule in them, but apparently it was omitted from the last rewriting.  The schedule has remained the same for 30 years, so it is my guess that it is permissible as it isn't written in the latest Bylaws, correct?  

Omitted as in "oops, forgot to type that part in", or did the department members vote to remove the meeting schedule?

[Rob Elsman]

The facts that all of these meetings are regularly scheduled meetings leads me to believe that they should all be classified as regular meetings for purposes of the parliamentary law.

[Rob Elsman]

As far as the common parliamentary law is concerned, any new business that is consistent with the purposes of the society may be brought before the assembly at any regular meeting, provided any required notice has been properly given.  Anything to the contrary would be found in the particular rules of the society.  The common parliamentary law does not distinguish between one type of regular meeting and another, except for the notion of an annual meeting.  Thus, the source of whatever authority the president of this organization might have to change the type of regular meeting from one to another will not be found in the common parliamentary law; rather, it will be found, if it exists, in the organization's particular rules.

[Atul Kapur]

On 5/24/2022 at 10:03 AM, Rob Elsman said:

The facts that all of these meetings are regularly scheduled meetings leads me to believe that they should all be classified as regular meetings for purposes of the parliamentary law.

Wouldn't 9:6 apply? "Some societies have frequent meetings for social or cultural purposes at which business may be transacted, and also hold a session every month or quarter especially for business. In such societies, the term regular meeting applies particularly to the regular business session."

It seems pretty clear from the OP that they have Regular Meetings and Drill Meetings. I'm willing to include drills within the definition of "social or cultural purposes"

[Rob Elsman]

"Drill" doesn't imply "social" or "cultural" to me.  I do not see how RONR (12th ed.) 9:6 is relevant at all.

[Atul Kapur]

Sounds to me like an important part of this department's culture includes regular drills.

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/24/2022 at 11:05 AM, Atul Kapur said:

It seems pretty clear from the OP that they have Regular Meetings and Drill Meetings. I'm willing to include drills within the definition of "social or cultural purposes"

I see the concern with calling them social or cultural, but they're also not meetings. Practicing auto extrication just isn't the same thing as amending the budget.

[ssj1203]

You are correct, Mr. Katz.  The first Tuesday has been dedicated to taking care of fire department business.  The second Tuesday has been dedicated to training drills and truck maintenance.  The meeting classification was changed to expedite their agenda to remove 6 members from the roster, not following the Bylaws in the removal process.

The Fire Chief and President suspended me, the Secretary-Treasurer for a "trumped-up" charge (I have proof), along with 5 other firefighters.  The Fire Chief (only in the department for 2 1/2 years/Bylaws require 7).  

The President and Fire Chief proceeded to post a Special Meeting @ 8:08 a.m. for 4:30 p.m. the same day. Most were at work and couldn't attend (not even the President who supposedly called the meeting).  No Agenda was posted, whatsoever.  The agenda from that meeting included my suspension and removal from office, the Assistant Fire Chief's removal from office, and 4 other firefighters. It also included getting 3 signers on the bank account and removing me, signer on the account.   

Upon the Fire Chief's presentation of the "unapproved" minutes from the Special Meeting at the bank, the bank's attorney called me, and I informed him that the Fire Chief was "getting the cart before the horse" and the minutes would not be approved until the regular June 14th meeting.  In an effort to expedite the removal of these members they changed the "DRILL" to a Regular Meeting (that is regularly for 35 years known as the Drill Meeting) to get the Special Meeting Minutes approved.  

Upon his reading of the minutes from the Special Meeting, I called Point of Order as he didn't follow the criteria for calling a special meeting as per Robert's Rules of Order which our department operates under.  (The President said, "they were approved", I signed them.)  Therefore, under RRO, the meeting was invalid.  The Fire-Chief (appointed temporarily by the President as Sec-Treas) ignored me and proceeded to read the minutes.  The Fire Chief told me that if I didn't stop talking, he was going to make me leave the meeting.  He proceeded to read the minutes from the special meeting and asked for the motions to accept, second, and called for the vote.  There are only 10 members qualified to vote.  As he suspended all 6 of us, the vote carried (4) with no opposition.  Additionally, the Ass't. Fire Chief attended and there were items that were read in the proposed special meeting minutes that were NOT discussed at all at the actual meeting but added in to get them through.  

Numerous Bylaw infractions occurred including a "gender-related insult" to one of the women firefighters from the Fire Chief.  There are two women firefighters being removed.  One of the reasons she is being removed is because the Fire Chief says she doesn't respond to fires.  She has no firefighting protective gear.  The men do, but not her.  She has been a Firefighter since 1999.  I have been in the department since 1986-87 and am registered with the Secretary of State of Texas as the agent for the department. 

The Fire chief has only served at 2 meetings since being elected in January, by members that are on probation as they are new in the department.  Our Bylaws state they have no voting powers until they have been in the department a year.  None of the other members, with the exception of the already serving President, qualify to hold any other office in the department due to the lack of time that they have served.   

It is important to note that 5 of the members of the department are members of the same family and have been volunteers for decades since the fire department's inception.  We are a "fully-volunteer" rural fire department and are not governed by a city or municipality.  We receive NO moneys, nor retirement, whatsoever.

I apologize for the long post, but we need help out here.  

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 at 06:17 PM by ssj1203

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/28/2022 at 1:59 PM, ssj1203 said:

I apologize for the long post, but we need help out here.  

 

Well, it sounds like you have some problems, but I'm not sure we have solutions. There is no RONR police you can call upon. The problem with your assembly does not sound like a lack of knowledge, but a lack of interest in following the rules. And it sounds like you have a system where the chief is also the presiding officer, a system that in my experience leads to trouble. Chiefs are used to being in command at fire scenes, and people are used to taking orders from chiefs. That switch can't really be turned off at a meeting. 

Is there an elected entity, such as a fire board? Even if so, it's unlikely they'd be of much help, as chiefs tend to be friendly with them, but that's where you can look.

Edited May 28, 2022 at 06:27 PM by Joshua Katz

[ssj1203]

Unfortunately, there is no fire board.

In our Bylaws it states that it is the duty of the President to preside at all meetings.  The President has typically always done this as it is an administrative position.

The Fire Chief is in charge of the trucks, firefighters, training, firefighting equipment purchase recommendations, and safety. 

Please supply more information regarding RONR police.  I am unfamiliar with this.   

Edited May 28, 2022 at 06:29 PM by ssj1203
punctuation

[Joshua Katz]

Apologies, I meant to type "there is no RONR police." 

I was confused as to who is presiding, since it sounded like your chief was. It is good that you have a separate president, but it still sounds like your chief is calling the shots at your meetings. Your president needs to push back.

But, overall, I do not think there's an easy solution here. There's a lack of interest in following the rules, and an interest in breaking them for power. A scene that is playing itself out throughout the country. Naked power grabs are hard to combat except by getting rid of the people involved. Parliamentary law is ultimately for those organizations that wish to follow it. You will need to see if yours does.

[ssj1203]

Thank you so much for your response.  I believe you are absolutely correct.  I find it extremely sad and degrading that valuable firefighting volunteers of so many years be removed in such a disrespectful manner.    

[Joshua Katz]

This is one of my many criticisms of most volunteer departments. They get governed by RONR meetings involving the whole department. Many have no interest but are required to go to meetings. Of those left, most have respect for the chain of command, not the rules. It leads to a bad situation. And, ultimately, fire departments, in my view, should not be governed by their members through democratic means, should not elect their officers, and so on. I just think it's a bad format for running a department, and you're seeing some of the reasons why.