Recording Points of Order

[Tomm]

Should Points of Order, and the issue affiliated with it, be documented in the Minutes of a meeting?

[Richard Brown]

On 9/20/2022 at 6:09 PM, Tomm said:

Should Points of Order, and the issue affiliated with it, be documented in the Minutes of a meeting?

Tom, I know you have a copy of the 12th edition of RONR. Have you looked at chapter section 48 regarding what is supposed to be included in the minutes, and particularly section 48:4 (10)? 

For those who do not have a copy of RONR, the short answer is, “yes”.
 

Edited September 21, 2022 at 12:56 AM by Richard Brown
Changed “chapter” to “section” as indicated

[Richard Brown]

@Tommyou might also take note of the fact that that answer is very easy to find by using the index to RONR. If you look at “minutes, content of“ and then scroll down just a bit lo and behold you find “Point of Order“ with a reference to the section I just gave you along with another reference. 

You can also find it in the index under “Point of Order“ and then scroll down a bit and you see the magic word “minutes“ with the citation I gave you above.

if you do just a little research before you post your questions, I think you will find many of the answers you seek on your own. Doing that is absolutely the best way to learn!

Learning to use the table of contents, the index, and the tinted pages can be a huge help in finding the answers to parliamentary questions. Personally, I prefer the index and the tinted pages, others prefer the table of contents  

 

 

[Tomm]

I very much appreciate the advise and admit do I enjoy the forum.

Just a bit of advise please. I often wonder what are the first things you ask yourself when someone asks a question? For instance, is this within the authority RONR's? Should this be a question for a lawyer?

I read the Discussion Board everyday and attempt to answer the question before I read your responses. My problem is I want every answer to be found or within the jurisdiction of RONR's but I also know that just isn't true! 

How do I become more diligent?

Thanks

[Josh Martin]

On 9/20/2022 at 6:09 PM, Tomm said:

Should Points of Order, and the issue affiliated with it, be documented in the Minutes of a meeting?

Yes.

"The body of the minutes should contain a separate paragraph for each subject matter, and should show:

...

10) all points of order and appeals, whether sustained or lost, together with the reasons given by the chair for his or her ruling;" RONR (12th ed.) 48:4

[puzzling]

what should be recorded if for example the next happened at a meeting:

member A: I move that we paint the clubhouse purple.

member B: seconded

chair: we have just debated and decided  that we will not paint the clubhouse. the chairs rules this motion is out of order.

member C : Appeal

member D seconded 

After debate and voting the appeal stands and after long debate it is decided that the clubhouse will be painted yellow.

 

 

[Josh Martin]

On 9/21/2022 at 3:36 AM, puzzling said:

what should be recorded if for example the next happened at a meeting:

member A: I move that we paint the clubhouse purple.

member B: seconded

chair: we have just debated and decided  that we will not paint the clubhouse. the chairs rules this motion is out of order.

member C : Appeal

member D seconded 

After debate and voting the appeal stands and after long debate it is decided that the clubhouse will be painted yellow.

Are some additional facts missing here? I'm not clear what the chair is referring to when he says "we have just debated and decided that we will not paint the clubhouse."

Setting that aside, it seems to me the excerpt presented here would be recorded in the minutes in some manner similar to the following:

"Member A moved to paint the clubhouse purple. The chair ruled the motion out of order on the grounds that the assembly had just decided not to paint the clubhouse. The chair's ruling was overturned upon appeal. After debate and amendment, the motion to paint the clubhouse yellow was adopted."

Edited September 22, 2022 at 02:45 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/21/2022 at 4:36 AM, puzzling said:

what should be recorded if for example the next happened at a meeting:

member A: I move that we paint the clubhouse purple.

member B: seconded

chair: we have just debated and decided  that we will not paint the clubhouse. the chairs rules this motion is out of order.

member C : Appeal

member D seconded 

After debate and voting the appeal stands and after long debate it is decided that the clubhouse will be painted yellow.

The chair needs to buy a clue.

If the motion has been made, seconded, debated, voted on, and rejected, as appears to be the case here, the motion is no longer before the assembly, so the chair has no business ruling it out of order.  If for some reason the motion was out of order the chair should have made that ruling as soon as the motion was made.   

So, since the ruling was invalid, an Appeal is dilatory.  If the ruling of the chair is sustained, the motion remains declared out of order. If it is overruled, the motion is not ruled out of order, but as it is already rejected, it is no longer before the assembly. Therefore, the appeal can have no effect either way. 

More importantly, since an appeal does not bring the original question again before the assembly, the appeal cannot result in a decision to paint the clubhouse yellow or any other color.  All it can do is sustain or overrule the chair's decision.  It would take a new motion to paint the clubhouse, and since the assembly has already decided not to, a new motion would not be in order.  

It would be in order to move to Reconsider the painting motion, which could be moved by someone who voted No (the prevailing side) on the motion to paint.

To answer your original question, the minutes should include all of the improper steps that were actually done, and none of the long debate interspersed among them.  Since no Points of Order were raised in an attempt to get that hot mess back on the rails, the assembly has apparently decided to pain the clubhouse yellow, but I wouldn't hazard a guess on how to describe it in a way that makes sense.

[Atul Kapur]

On 9/22/2022 at 12:07 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

If the motion has been made, seconded, debated, voted on, and rejected, as appears to be the case here, the motion is no longer before the assembly, so the chair has no business ruling it out of order.

There are two possibilities that come to mind:

A) The motion "That we paint the clubhouse" was lost earlier in the session, as @puzzling tells us ("we have just debated and decided  that we will not paint the clubhouse") so the motion is ruled not in order as per 10:26(3). I would be inclined to rule that a motion to paint the clubhouse purple is substantially the same question as to paint the clubhouse; or

B ) The motion "That the clubhouse remain unpainted [± in order to preserve its heritage status]" was adopted earlier in the session, in which case the motion is not in order as per 10:26(4).

 

[Josh Martin]

On 9/21/2022 at 11:07 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

The chair needs to buy a clue.

If the motion has been made, seconded, debated, voted on, and rejected, as appears to be the case here, the motion is no longer before the assembly, so the chair has no business ruling it out of order.  If for some reason the motion was out of order the chair should have made that ruling as soon as the motion was made.   

So, since the ruling was invalid, an Appeal is dilatory.  If the ruling of the chair is sustained, the motion remains declared out of order. If it is overruled, the motion is not ruled out of order, but as it is already rejected, it is no longer before the assembly. Therefore, the appeal can have no effect either way. 

More importantly, since an appeal does not bring the original question again before the assembly, the appeal cannot result in a decision to paint the clubhouse yellow or any other color.  All it can do is sustain or overrule the chair's decision.  It would take a new motion to paint the clubhouse, and since the assembly has already decided not to, a new motion would not be in order.  

It would be in order to move to Reconsider the painting motion, which could be moved by someone who voted No (the prevailing side) on the motion to paint.

To answer your original question, the minutes should include all of the improper steps that were actually done, and none of the long debate interspersed among them.  Since no Points of Order were raised in an attempt to get that hot mess back on the rails, the assembly has apparently decided to pain the clubhouse yellow, but I wouldn't hazard a guess on how to describe it in a way that makes sense.

I think we may have a very different understanding of the facts. Perhaps Puzzling can clarify. My understanding was as follows.

• A motion is made and seconded to paint the clubhouse purple.
• The chair rules the motion out of order on the grounds that "we have just debated and decided  that we will not paint the clubhouse." The reasons for this ruling are not clear, but presumably it relates to something which occurred prior to the making of the motion to paint the clubhouse purple.
• Members appeal from this ruling and, upon appeal, this ruling is overturned.
• The members continue to consider the motion to paint the clubhouse purple. At some point, the motion is amended to strike the word "purple" and insert the word "yellow."

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/22/2022 at 10:56 AM, Josh Martin said:

I think we may have a very different understanding of the facts. Perhaps Puzzling can clarify. My understanding was as follows.

• A motion is made and seconded to paint the clubhouse purple.
• The chair rules the motion out of order on the grounds that "we have just debated and decided  that we will not paint the clubhouse." The reasons for this ruling are not clear, but presumably it relates to something which occurred prior to the making of the motion to paint the clubhouse purple.
• Members appeal from this ruling and, upon appeal, this ruling is overturned.
• The members continue to consider the motion to paint the clubhouse purple. At some point, the motion is amended to strike the word "purple" and insert the word "yellow."

I agree it could be read that way.  I hope puzzling will state what motions, if any, came before this situation that have bearing upon it.

"Puzzling by name, puzzling by nature."

[Richard Brown]

On 9/22/2022 at 7:57 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

I agree it could be read that way.  I hope puzzling will state what motions, if any, came before this situation that have bearing upon it.

"Puzzling by name, puzzling by nature."

And all of that discussion should have been done by starting a new thread because it really has nothing to do with the original question by Tomm as to whether points of order should be recorded in the minutes.

[puzzling]

The original question;

On 9/21/2022 at 12:09 AM, Tomm said:

Should Points of Order, and the issue affiliated with it, be documented in the Minutes of a meeting?

and my question was about how to record points of order in the minutes, these questions are so close related that I found it reasonable to add it to this question

the illustration i made was  just a  fictive meeting where a ruling was made and an appeal happened, what the exact previously adopted motion was (and even of that motion was adopted this session or longer ago), or if the ruling of the chair was right or wrong , the question  was not about that, the question was just about how to record it  in the minutes. (RONR doesn't give an example about this)

as Mr Martin describes the situation is how I suggested it. 

as I now understand it

-the main motion as proposed is recorded (with the maker)

- the ruling of the chair is recorded

- appeals and their outcomes are recorded (but not the maker of the appeal)

- the final disposition of the motion is recorded.

 

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/23/2022 at 6:57 PM, puzzling said:

-the main motion as proposed is recorded (with the maker)

- the ruling of the chair is recorded

- appeals and their outcomes are recorded (but not the maker of the appeal)

- the final disposition of the motion is recorded.

The ruling of the chair and the reasonI(s) given by the chair for ruling in that way.

The maker of the motion to Appeal would be recorded.  The seconder would not.

Edited September 24, 2022 at 02:03 AM by Gary Novosielski
Strike incorrect information.

[Josh Martin]

On 9/23/2022 at 8:40 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

The maker of the motion to Appeal would be recorded.  The seconder would not.

On what basis would the maker of the appeal be recorded?

"The name of the maker of a main motion should be entered in the minutes, but the name of the seconder should not be entered unless ordered by the assembly." RONR (12th ed.) 48:5(1), emphasis added

An appeal is an incidental motion, not a main motion.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/23/2022 at 10:00 PM, Josh Martin said:

On what basis would the maker of the appeal be recorded?

"The name of the maker of a main motion should be entered in the minutes, but the name of the seconder should not be entered unless ordered by the assembly." RONR (12th ed.) 48:5(1), emphasis added

An appeal is an incidental motion, not a main motion.

OOps.  Right you are.  I'll fix it.  Thanx.