Hybrid meetings

[Alexander George]

Hello.  My college is proposing hybrid faculty meetings at which some people are present in the room, and some are watching remotely but unable to participate by speaking or writing.  There is a proposal that those watching remotely be given a vote.  Are there any Robert's Rules issues here?

Thanks.

[Weldon Merritt]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:00 PM, Alexander George said:

Are there any Robert's Rules issues here?

Yes, definitely. So far as RONR is concerned, only members present in person at the meeting may legitimately participate. For those participating electronically to be able to fully participate, including voting, it would have to be authorized in the bylaws. And there also should be some adopted special rules of order to govern the meetings.

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

Many of us are using zoom for hybrid meetings, and have developed special rules of order that can make them comply with RONR requirements if, as Mr. Merritt has said, such meetings are authorized in the bylaws.

But in accordance with RONR, unless otherwise stated in your bylaws, a "member" is presumed to have all of the basic rights of membership - to be present, to speak in debate, to make motions, and to vote (RONR 1:4). Any restrictions on those rights would also need to be included in an organization's rules that are of higher authority than its parliamentary authority (bylaws, or special rules of order). 

So essentially, if you currently have no rules, those attending electronically who have no ability to speak or make motions or vote aren't really members in attendance. They are observers. By giving them some of the rights of membership (voting), you have definitely crossed a line that makes them members who are considered present, and that probably requires changes to your bylaws. 

[Marsha Thole]

I am in the same situation. A group I belong has its annual meeting this weekend, it will be hybrid. BUT, the president has declared that anyone attending via ZOOM will not be allowed to vote, comment, or otherwise participate in the meeting, making them totally disenfranchised. Nothing in the bylaws about electronic meetings or even emails, which has been pointed out to the board many times over many years. It doesn't care. No special rules even. The president has made it clear that her actions are approved because need to have the meeting. (I was removed from the board's bylaws committee because I wanted them to follow RONR, which is their parliamentary authority. They were open about not following the bylaws, RONR, or state statutes, and didn't care. My only recourse is to not attend, and just report them to the Attorney General. I have to leave other members in such a mess, but they are clueless on our bylaws, too. Other than resigning (and I am thinking about it), what can I do to protect the integrity of the law here?

 

[Richard Brown]

On 10/13/2022 at 10:07 PM, Marsha Thole said:

Nothing in the bylaws about electronic meetings

Do I understand correctly that there is nothing in your bylaws which permits electronic meetings?

If your bylaws do not have a provision that can be construed as permitting electronic (or hybrid) meetings or voting by email, it cannot be done.

However, I see nothing wrong with permitting members who cannot be present from viewing the meeting on zoom or YouTube or by any other means, but they cannot be permitted to vote unless expressly permitted by your bylaws.  The assembly could permit non-present members to view the meeting electronically and even to speak, but not to vote.

it would require a majority vote to permit the meeting to be carried on zoom or YouTube or by some other electronic means to permit non-present members to view the meeting electronically and to speak much the way a guest would be permitted to speak. However, it requires a suspension of the rules by a 2/3 vote to promote non-present members to participate in debate and they cannot be permitted to vote under any circumstances unless permitted in the bylaws.

if I understand your rules correctly, the president is correct to say that members who are viewing the meeting on zoom do not have the right to actively participate, but they may be granted permission to participate in a limited fashion by the assembly itself. They cannot be given the right to vote unless unless they are physically present or voting absentee is authorized in the bylaws.

[puzzling]

On 10/14/2022 at 4:07 AM, Marsha Thole said:

They were open about not following the bylaws, RONR, or state statutes, and didn't care. My only recourse is to not attend, and just report them to the Attorney General. I have to leave other members in such a mess, but they are clueless on our bylaws, too. Other than resigning (and I am thinking about it), what can I do to protect the integrity of the law here?

 

there is no RONR police but there is a state police. so I think you mightb allready have done all you could do. 

depending on the (state) laws and what kind of organisation it is there maybe more alleys to pursue. Maybe letting other members and the public know what you think of the organisation is one of them.

Sorry not much good news but good luck

[Gary Novosielski]

On 10/14/2022 at 7:53 AM, puzzling said:

Maybe letting other members and the public know what you think of the organisation is one of them.

I don't think it is responsible to suggest to someone that it is a good idea to speak ill of the organization to the public, without pointing out that this is likely to get one expelled from membership.

[Marsha Thole]

Update to my post: I emailed the president who claimed no knowledge of the statement in the notice that Zoom participants at the annual meeting could not vote or speak, and said they can. I don't believe for one minutes that she didn't know what was in the notice she sent out. The fact that no one else brought that to her attention tells you the lack of commitment among the members and the lackadaisical attitude of not caring whether they vote.

Thanks everyone for your input.  

[Richard Brown]

On 10/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, Marsha Thole said:

Update to my post: I emailed the president who claimed no knowledge of the statement in the notice that Zoom participants at the annual meeting could not vote or speak, and said they can. I don't believe for one minutes that she didn't know what was in the notice she sent out. The fact that no one else brought that to her attention tells you the lack of commitment among the members and the lackadaisical attitude of not caring whether they vote.

Thanks everyone for your input.  

Guest Marsha, I’m confused by your last comment. Are you saying that members on Zoom will be able to vote?  Or that they cannot vote??   RONR is clear: they cannot vote unless electronic participation and voting is authorized in your bylaws. Participation without voting can possibly be authorized by the membership, but voting cannot legitimately be authorized without amending the bylaws.  The legitimacy of motions ( and elections)  adopted by such an electronic vote can be called into question, especially if the votes cast electronically could make a difference in the outcome. 

 

[Marsha Thole]

I don't mean to confuse anyone. Yes, thanks to my intervention, those who will be participating on Zoom will be able to vote. Sadly, the president will not be sending out an email correction to that effect, as her excuse is that the only 2 people who can do that are on vacation at the moment. No backup??? Sorry excuse. I sure hope she makes an announcement at the meeting, but common sense is nowhere to be found in this outfit. You can't help  members who won't help themselves by questioning violations that are rampant. 

[Gary Novosielski]

But you seem to be ignoring the fact that it is not the president, but you who are promoting rampant violations.  People who are not present in person cannot vote.  And you appear to be the one making excuses to allow them to vote, but it's a clear violation of RONR.

[Richard Brown]

On 10/13/2022 at 10:07 PM, Marsha Thole said:

A group I belong has its annual meeting this weekend, it will be hybrid. BUT, the president has declared that anyone attending via ZOOM will not be allowed to vote, comment, or otherwise participate in the meeting, making them totally disenfranchised. Nothing in the bylaws about electronic meetings or even emails, which has been pointed out to the board many times over many years. It doesn't care. No special rules even. The president has made it clear that her actions are approved because need to have the meeting. (I was removed from the board's bylaws committee because I wanted them to follow RONR, which is their parliamentary authority.

 

On 10/15/2022 at 7:28 PM, Marsha Thole said:

thanks to my intervention, those who will be participating on Zoom will be able to vote.

Like Mr. Novosielski, I do not understand your position.  You said very clearly that your bylaws say nothing about electronic meetings or absentee voting.  You said very clearly you want to follow your rules AND follow RONR.  

Now, however, you are saying that because of your efforts members participating electronically by Zoom WILL be allowed to vote. 

I'm sorry, but I do not follow this.  Do you want to follow the rules or not?   The rules in your bylaws seem clear..... electronic meetings are not allowed because they are not permitted..... and the rules in RONR are crystal clear that any type of absentee voting, whether electronically by zoom, by phone, by email, by mail or by any means whatsoever is not permitted unless expressly permitted in your bylaws.

It seems clear to me.... and I think to all of my colleagues.... that voting electronically via Zoom or any other means IS NOT PERMITTED in your organization without first amending your bylaws.

If we are missing something, please fill us in and explain your rationale to us.