Discussing a topic prior to making a motion

[Guest Karen]

Does RROO require a motion under New Business to discuss a topic? Some say that we can discuss a topic so a motion can be formulated.  others say a motion is required with a second to proceed to discussion.

[Joshua Katz]

Both are right; it depends on the type of assembly. In small boards (less than about 12) and committees, debate without a motion is permitted. But in the regular case, it is not, and there must be a motion on the floor for debate to be had. Personally, I think things work better when there is no debate without a motion, but that's just my opinion.

[Guest Karen]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:31 PM, Joshua Katz said:

Both are right; it depends on the type of assembly. In small boards (less than about 12) and committees, debate without a motion is permitted. But in the regular case, it is not, and there must be a motion on the floor for debate to be had. Personally, I think things work better when there is no debate without a motion, but that's just my opinion.

The organization is a church and I'm addressing the membership meeting with more than 12 people. so I take from your answer that a motion is required. for what it's worth I agree with you. thanks for your answer.

[Joshua Katz]

Correct, both because it is a membership meeting and because it has more than 12 people.

[Richard Brown]

On 10/7/2022 at 7:16 PM, Guest Karen said:

Does RROO require a motion under New Business to discuss a topic? Some say that we can discuss a topic so a motion can be formulated.  others say a motion is required with a second to proceed to discussion.

As Mr. Katz said, both are right. Also, there is a procedure in RONR for having a discussion whenno motion is pending, but it requires the consent of the assembly. Sections 4:7 and 4:8 of RONR provide some initial guidance: 

4:7 Under parliamentary procedure, strictly speaking, discussion of any subject is permitted only with reference to a pending motion. When necessary, a motion can be prefaced by a few words of explanation, which must not become a speech; or a member can first request information, or he can indicate briefly what he wishes to propose and can ask the chair to assist him in wording an appropriate motion. In general, however, when a member has obtained the floor while no motion is pending—unless it is for a special purpose, such as to ask a question—he makes a motion immediately. Any desired improvements upon the member’s proposal can be accomplished by several methods after the motion has been made (for a summary, see 10:29–30).

4:8 For a member to begin to discuss a matter while no question is pending, without promptly leading to a motion, implies an unusual circumstance and requires permission of the assembly (see 33:22) in addition to obtaining the floor. In larger assemblies, this rule requires firm enforcement. In smaller meetings, it may sometimes be relaxed with constructive effect if the members are not accustomed to working under the standard rule. Unless the assembly has specifically authorized that a particular subject be discussed while no motion is pending, however, such a discussion can be entered into only at the sufferance of the chair or until a point of order is made; and in the latter case, the chair must immediately require that a motion be offered or the discussion cease. The general rule against discussion without a motion is one of parliamentary procedure’s powerful tools for keeping business “on track,” and an observance of its spirit can be an important factor in making even a very small meeting rapidly moving and interesting.

The type motion that would be used to request permission for discussion without a motion being pending is described in section  33:22 of RONR:

33:22 E. Request for Any Other Privilege. When a member desires to make a request not covered by one of the four types explained above—as, for example, a request to address remarks or make a presentation while no motion is pending—he rises, addresses the chair, and, as soon as he catches the presiding officer’s attention, states his request. Although he does not have to wait for recognition and can make his request even though another member has been assigned the floor, he should never interrupt a member speaking unless sure that urgency justifies it. Generally, such matters are settled by unanimous consent or informally, but if there is an objection, a motion can be made to grant the request. If explanation is required, it can be requested or given, but this must not extend into debate. These requests should be treated so as to interrupt the proceedings as little as is consistent with the demands of justice.

 

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 10/7/2022 at 9:33 PM, Guest Karen said:

The organization is a church and I'm addressing the membership meeting with more than 12 people. so I take from your answer that a motion is required. for what it's worth I agree with you. thanks for your answer.

In my experience, when discussion without a definite motion is allowed, focus tends to drift off in five directions and the most common result is either nothing, or some vaguely worded proposal being put off till next month, when nobody will remember what the fuss was about.

[Alicia Percell, PRP]

If there's going to be an extensive discussion with no motion pending, it's probably best to agree to establish a time limit at the beginning so that it will take a 2/3 vote to keep extending time.  When the discussion heads off the rails, or it just becomes repetitive and unproductive, enough people will be ready to move on that they won't vote to extend time any further.

[Guest Karen]

Thank you all for your comments. They are most helpful.

Next question. Would a motion need to be made either when a motion is made to grant the request (to discuss topic without a motion) or after the unanimous consent is granted to set a time limit for discussion?

thanks again.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 10/14/2022 at 5:07 PM, Guest Karen said:

Thank you all for your comments. They are most helpful.

Next question. Would a motion need to be made either when a motion is made to grant the request (to discuss topic without a motion) or after the unanimous consent is granted to set a time limit for discussion?

thanks again.

You could certainly combine both, as: "I ask unanimous consent that we consider the topic of <topic> without a motion, for a period not to exceed <limit> minutes."

[Rob Elsman]

Ordinarily, in larger assemblies, the transaction of business presumes that a main motion is made, seconded, and stated by the chair before debate on the motion commences.  Take a look at RONR (12th ed.) 3:21ff.  The handling of a main motion is discussed in RONR (12th ed.) §4.  I agree with Mr. Novosielsi that "pie in the sky" discussion of a topic tends to drift unprofitably and tediously.

[Guest Karen]

One last question. what's the procedure for stopping the discussion if a time frame hasn't been attached. In other words, how do we get back to the agenda?

Thanks all.

[Joshua Katz]

If the time allotted for a topic on the agenda is being exceeded, the motion to call for the orders of the day is the way to remedy that.

[Richard Brown]

On 10/16/2022 at 4:34 PM, Joshua Katz said:

If the time allotted for a topic on the agenda is being exceeded, the motion to call for the orders of the day is the way to remedy that.

I don't think there is any evidence that there is an adopted agenda.  They are having discussion without a motion pending because a motion was adopted to have such a discussion without a motion being pending.   So, I don't see how a call for the Orders of The Day would be applicable.

To answer the question as to how to get out of the discussion, I want to first say that I agree with Alicia Percell's suggestion that a definite time limit be set for the discussion.  It would require a two-thirds vote to extend the time beyond that pre-set limit.

But, assuming no such motion was adopted and they are in a period of discussion without a motion pending, either by virtue of a motion to do so or by unanimous consent, and there is no time limit for the discussion, I'm inclined to think the situation is rather analogous to a motion to end debate and a two-thirds vote would be required.  I don't see that RONR does not address this specific situation.  I would be quite happy if such a discussion could be stopped with a majority vote, but I don't see a provision for that in RONR.

Edited October 17, 2022 at 01:25 AM by Richard Brown
typographical correction

[Josh Martin]

On 10/16/2022 at 8:23 PM, Richard Brown said:

But, assuming no such motion was adopted and they are in a period of discussion without a motion pending, either by virtue of a motion to do so or by unanimous consent, and there is no time limit for the discussion, I'm inclined to think the situation is rather analogous to a motion to end debate and a two-thirds vote would be required.  I don't see that RONR does not address this specific situation.  I would be quite happy if such a discussion could be stopped with a majority vote, but I don't see a provision for that in RONR.

I would disagree and would suggest that a majority vote is sufficient. A motion to limit or end debate requires a 2/3 vote for adoption because it has the effect of suspending rules and limiting the rights of members. Ending a discussion when no motion is pending does neither of these, as no rule in RONR provides for such discussions nor does any rule in RONR grant members a right to partake in such discussions. As a result, it would seem to me that if the assembly adopts a motion providing for discussion with no motion pending, the assembly is free to end such a discussion at any time by majority vote.

As you have suggested previously, a motion to permit a discussion of this nature is a Request for Any Other Privilege. I agree, and I would suggest that the discussion can be ended in the same manner.

Depending on the particular circumstances, there may be other ways to end the discussion. For example, if a member wishes to make a main motion on the subject, a member could do so, which would end the informal discussion and make the main motion the pending question. Another option, if there is no further business to conduct at the meeting, would simply be to move to Adjourn. But if all that is desired is to end the informal discussion and return to the same parliamentary situation before the discussion had begun, then I think Request for Any Other Privilege is the way to do it.

Edited October 17, 2022 at 01:44 PM by Josh Martin

[Dan Honemann]

On 10/17/2022 at 9:43 AM, Josh Martin said:

I would disagree and would suggest that a majority vote is sufficient. A motion to limit or end debate requires a 2/3 vote for adoption because it has the effect of suspending rules and limiting the rights of members. Ending a discussion when no motion is pending does neither of these, as no rule in RONR provides for such discussions nor does any rule in RONR grant members a right to partake in such discussions. As a result, it would seem to me that if the assembly adopts a motion providing for discussion with no motion pending, the assembly is free to end such a discussion at any time by majority vote.

As you have suggested previously, a motion to permit a discussion of this nature is a Request for Any Other Privilege. I agree, and I would suggest that the discussion can be ended in the same manner.

I'm not sure this is necessarily so.  I think that what is contemplated in 4:8, 33:22, and 43:31-34 is a request by a member for permission to himself "address remarks or make a presentation while no motion is pending."  I don't believe that what is contemplated is a full blown discussion by the entire assembly, such as might take place in a committee of the whole.