Rescinding a vote that failed

[Tomm]

Reading thru the Minutes from the last Board meeting I came across this comment, which relates to trying to undo a vote from a previous meeting that failed by rescinding the failed vote! 

"Several other points stand out in this matter, however. First, nowhere does Robert’s state that a motion to rescind a vote on a previous motion that failed cannot be raised. Second, Robert’s states at 26:2, an Objection to the Consideration of the Motion can be raised only before there has been any debate on the Motion to Rescind the Vote; “thereafter, consideration of the [Motion] has begun and it is too late to object.” Third, the vote on the original Motion to Approve the Budget and Finance Committee’s Recommendation to Approve the 2023 Budget was not in the affirmative, its effect however – the result of the Board’s vote – amounts to the Board’s direction to the Budget and Finance Committee to take action, to do something, which is to submit a proposed 2023 budget which the Budget and Finance Committee recommends be adopted. Thus, there is something to rescind: the Motion to Rescind the Vote equates to rescinding the Board’s direction to the committee to compose a 2023 Budget for the Board of Directors to adopt. The current Motion to Rescind that vote, or what translates into a resulting order of the Board of Directors for the Committee to create a 2023 Budget, is clearly something that this Board can rescind."

The part that stuck out for me was, "nowhere does Robert’s state that a motion to rescind a vote on a previous motion that failed cannot be raised."

Any truth to that? Seems it violates 45:9?

[Atul Kapur]

There are many errors in that statement. But 35:1 counters that specific one: "The effect of Rescind is to strike out an entire main motion, resolution, order, or rule that has been adopted at some previous time."

Of course, the logic required to realize that "adopted" = "not failed" will be lost on those who are set on a particular outcome that requires them not to be equal.

Edited January 20, 2023 at 12:14 AM by Atul Kapur

[Phil D]

In addition to Dr. Kapur's comment, note 35:2, (2)'s description of the characteristics of a motion to amend or rescind something previously adopted: it may only be applied (as its title implies) to a motion which was adopted. 

Compare with the description of a motion to reconsider, which allows for reconsideration of both affirmative and negative votes (depending on other circumstances).

 

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

I would add 1:6, "The basic principle of decision in a deliberative assembly is that, to become the act or choice of the body, a proposition must be adopted by a majority vote, that is, direct APPROVAL...."

You can only rescind a decision (i.e. approval).

Those minutes are a fine work of fiction, however.

Edited January 20, 2023 at 12:23 AM by Caryn Ann Harlos

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/19/2023 at 6:43 PM, Tomm said:

Reading thru the Minutes from the last Board meeting I came across this comment, which relates to trying to undo a vote from a previous meeting that failed by rescinding the failed vote! 

"Several other points stand out in this matter, however. First, nowhere does Robert’s state that a motion to rescind a vote on a previous motion that failed cannot be raised. Second, Robert’s states at 26:2, an Objection to the Consideration of the Motion can be raised only before there has been any debate on the Motion to Rescind the Vote; “thereafter, consideration of the [Motion] has begun and it is too late to object.” Third, the vote on the original Motion to Approve the Budget and Finance Committee’s Recommendation to Approve the 2023 Budget was not in the affirmative, its effect however – the result of the Board’s vote – amounts to the Board’s direction to the Budget and Finance Committee to take action, to do something, which is to submit a proposed 2023 budget which the Budget and Finance Committee recommends be adopted. Thus, there is something to rescind: the Motion to Rescind the Vote equates to rescinding the Board’s direction to the committee to compose a 2023 Budget for the Board of Directors to adopt. The current Motion to Rescind that vote, or what translates into a resulting order of the Board of Directors for the Committee to create a 2023 Budget, is clearly something that this Board can rescind."

The part that stuck out for me was, "nowhere does Robert’s state that a motion to rescind a vote on a previous motion that failed cannot be raised."

Any truth to that? Seems it violates 45:9?

No there's no truth to that.  You can't rescind something that was never adopted.  It's a little like asking for a refund on an item that was never purchased.

Whoever is making this ridiculous claim, show them the citations noted above.

There are a couple of other points worthy of note. 

• Budgets are normally adopted by the full membership.  It's not the sort of thing that the board alone would have the power to do.  But see your bylaws for possible exceptions.
• The motion to Object to Consideration does not apply in this case.  It's not a policy question, it's a procedural one.  The motion is not "objectionable", it is simply absurd.and out of order.  A Point of Order to that effect could have been raised without resorting to Object to Consideration.
• If that's actually a quote from your minutes, it appears completely improper.  Minutes are a record of what was done--not what was said, not a list of unsupported assertions, or musings on what may or may not be in order.  It should record motions that were made, what happened to them, any rulings and appeals, and that's about it.  Refer to RONR (12th ed.) §48.

[Josh Martin]

On 1/19/2023 at 3:43 PM, Tomm said:

Reading thru the Minutes from the last Board meeting I came across this comment, which relates to trying to undo a vote from a previous meeting that failed by rescinding the failed vote! 

For starters, none of this information belongs in the minutes. (Unless, perhaps, this was the chair's reasoning for his ruling on a Point of Order.)

It is also the case that most of this information is very wrong.

On 1/19/2023 at 3:43 PM, Tomm said:

First, nowhere does Robert’s state that a motion to rescind a vote on a previous motion that failed cannot be raised.

"Rescind—also known as Repeal or Annul—is the motion by which a previous action or order can be canceled or countermanded. The effect of Rescind is to strike out an entire main motion, resolution, order, or rule that has been adopted at some previous time." RONR (12th ed.) 35:1, emphasis added

As I understand the facts, what the board wished to do was to adopt the motion previously offered to adopt the budget. The proper course of action to do this under RONR was simply to renew that motion. If for some reason this is a problem due to the board's customized rules, then likely next steps would be motions to Suspend the Rules and/or adopt new rules.

There is no reason to pursue convoluted nonsense like "rescinding" a failed vote. Whatever it is the board wanted to do, there was almost certainly a more logical and simpler means of achieving that objective.

On 1/19/2023 at 3:43 PM, Tomm said:

Second, Robert’s states at 26:2, an Objection to the Consideration of the Motion can be raised only before there has been any debate on the Motion to Rescind the Vote; “thereafter, consideration of the [Motion] has begun and it is too late to object.”

Actually, Objection to Consideration can't be raised regarding a motion to Rescind at all, since OTC can only be raised regarding an original main motion, not an incidental main motion (which is what Rescind is).

But the rules concerning OTC are irrelevant, because the relevant motion in the situation described is Point of Order, not Objection to Consideration. The relevant citation regarding Point of Order is this:

"The general rule is that if a question of order is to be raised, it must be raised promptly at the time the breach occurs. For example, if the chair is stating the question on a motion that has not been seconded, or on a motion that is not in order in the existing parliamentary situation, the time to raise these points of order is when the chair states the motion. After debate on such a motion has begun—no matter how clear it is that the chair should not have stated the question on the motion—a point of order is too late. If a member is unsure of his point or wishes to hear what the maker has to say on behalf of the motion before pressing a point of order, he may, with the chair's sufferance, “reserve a point of order” against the motion; but after the maker has spoken, he must insist upon his point of order or withdraw it. Points of order regarding the conduct of a vote must be raised immediately following the announcement of the voting result (see 45:9)." RONR (12th ed.) 23:5

The question then arises as to at what point a Point of Order concerning a motion to Rescind a failed vote is in order. I am inclined to think it is timely up until the time the motion to Rescind is adopted.

On 1/19/2023 at 3:43 PM, Tomm said:

Third, the vote on the original Motion to Approve the Budget and Finance Committee’s Recommendation to Approve the 2023 Budget was not in the affirmative, its effect however – the result of the Board’s vote – amounts to the Board’s direction to the Budget and Finance Committee to take action, to do something, which is to submit a proposed 2023 budget which the Budget and Finance Committee recommends be adopted.

No, this is not correct. By voting not to approve the budget, the only effect is that the board has decided not to approve the budget. This vote, in itself, does not instruct the Budget and Finance Committee to do anything. It may well be that a logical next step would be to adopt instructions that this committee submit a new budget, but a separate motion would be required to do so. It also may well be that the committee may choose to pursue such an action on its own initiative. But a rejected vote, in itself, does not have the effect of directing a committee to do anything.

Edited January 20, 2023 at 03:04 PM by Josh Martin

[Drake Savory]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:02 AM, Josh Martin said:

No, this is not correct. By voting not to approve the budget, the only effect is that the board has decided not to approve the budget. This vote, in itself, does not instruct the Budget and Finance Committee to do anything. It may well be that a logical next step would be to adopt instructions that this committee submit a new budget, but a separate motion would be required to do so. It also may well be that the committee may choose to pursue such an action on its own initiative.

There could be a bylaw stating that should the budget not be approved, the Budget & Finance Committee shall take action to ...

[Phil D]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:11 PM, Drake Savory said:

There could be a bylaw stating that should the budget not be approved, the Budget & Finance Committee shall take action to ...

That would not change the general issue that the motion to rescind or amend something previously adopted requires something to have been adopted in the first place. Of course we could speculate that the Bylaws authorize negative votes to be rescinded...

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:11 PM, Drake Savory said:

There could be a bylaw stating that should the budget not be approved, the Budget & Finance Committee shall take action to ...

Could be, but since there are more reasons why it might not be approved than we can foresee here, I'd call it a bad idea.