Clarification on 2/3 present vot

[Guest Jasmine]

What does this statement mean in regards to the following data:

33 votes turned in

21 yes

10 no

2 abstain

twothirds

vote of a classis or congregation for approval. Unless this requirement 

mentions the “entire membership” or “those present,” a two-thirds vote 

means at least two-thirds of the votes cast by persons entitled to vote, 

excluding blanks or abstentions. (Robert’s Rules of Order, Newly Revised, 

11th ed., pp. 401-402)

[Joshua Katz]

There are 10 no votes and 21 yes votes. The easiest way to calculate a 2/3 vote is that there must be twice as many yes votes as no votes. Since there are more than twice as many, the vote passes. (It would pass even if there were exactly twice a many, too, i.e. 20 yes votes.)

[Guest Jasmine]

So even with 33 total votes "cast"

There is only 31 votes cast instead? Because of the abstentions?

So the motion passes?

[Joshua Katz]

Yes, those who abstain, which just means choosing not to vote, have not voted, and have allowed others to decide for them. For any threshold other than those taken against the entire membership, we look at those who voted, and abstainers did not vote. So 31 voted, and 2/3 of them voted yes.

[Atul Kapur]

On 8/23/2023 at 7:16 PM, Joshua Katz said:

For any threshold other than those taken against the entire membership,

Or "of those present"

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

What does this statement mean in regards to the following data:

33 votes turned in

21 yes

10 no

2 abstain

twothirds

 

No, actually it is:

31 votes cast

21 Yes

10 No

two-thirds ✅

[Guest Jasmine]

What is the purpose of an abstention vote if it does not count as a vote cast? Why turn in a vote at all if it does not count?

It seems like this should be 

Total votes cast 33

Votes needed to pass 22

Yes votes 21

No votes 10

Abstentions  2 not counted as a yes or no

When do the abstentions count as a vote?

[Joshua Katz]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:42 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

When do the abstentions count as a vote?

Never. To abstain is to not vote.

(Note: Sometimes abstaining has the same *effect* as a no vote, when the voting threshold is based on something other than present and voting. But even then, it doesn't count as a vote, it just has that effect.)

On 8/23/2023 at 8:42 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

What is the purpose of an abstention vote if it does not count as a vote cast? Why turn in a vote at all if it does not count?

 

I couldn't tell you. If they didn't turn in a ballot, it would have the same effect. Similarly, in a vote by voice, it is improper to ask for abstentions.

[Weldon Merritt]

On 8/23/2023 at 7:42 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

When do the abstentions count as a vote?

Mr. Katz beat me to the punch with his excellent, and correct, response.

As far as why someone might turn in a blank ballot, it could be that they don't want it to be obvious that they didn't vote, or they may mistakenly believe that an abstention has some effect.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:42 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

What is the purpose of an abstention vote if it does not count as a vote cast? Why turn in a vote at all if it does not count?

It seems like this should be 

Total votes cast 33

Votes needed to pass 22

Yes votes 21

No votes 10

Abstentions  2 not counted as a yes or no

When do the abstentions count as a vote?

They never do.  When you abstain, voting is what you are abstaining from doing.  There is no such thing as an abstention vote.  You either vote, or you abstain from voting. 

You can abstain by:

• Remaining quiet when the chair asks "Those in favor/opposed?"
• Remaining seated during a rising vote.
• Never raising your hand during a show of hands.
• Not answering when your name is called during a roll-call vote.
• Answering "Abstain" or "Present" during a roll-call vote.
• Turning in a ballot with Abstain written on it.
• Turning in a ballot with something else written on it which fails to indicate a preference.
• Turning in a ballot with nothing written on it.
• Not turning in a ballot at all.

And there may be others, but basically it is any response other than Yes or No, or in the case of an election other, than a candidate.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/23/2023 at 5:14 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

What does this statement mean in regards to the following data:

33 votes turned in

21 yes

10 no

2 abstain

twothirds

vote of a classis or congregation for approval. Unless this requirement 

mentions the “entire membership” or “those present,” a two-thirds vote 

means at least two-thirds of the votes cast by persons entitled to vote, 

excluding blanks or abstentions. (Robert’s Rules of Order, Newly Revised, 

11th ed., pp. 401-402)

A vote of 21 yes and 10 no is a 2/3 vote. As noted, unless the requirement is otherwise qualified, a two-thirds vote "means at least two-thirds of the votes cast by persons entitled to vote, excluding blanks or abstentions." Therefore, the two abstentions (which are not actually votes) are not counted in the total. As a result, a total of 31 votes were cast, and 21 votes, which is at least 2/3, were cast in the affirmative.

On 8/23/2023 at 6:05 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

So even with 33 total votes "cast"

There is only 31 votes cast instead? Because of the abstentions?

So the motion passes?

Yes, that's correct. An abstention is not a vote. To "abstain" means to refrain from doing something. In this context, it means to refrain from voting. So only 31 votes were cast.

On 8/23/2023 at 8:42 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

What is the purpose of an abstention vote if it does not count as a vote cast?

The phrase "abstention vote" is an oxymoron. To "abstain" means to not vote.

The purpose of an abstention is for the member, for whatever reason, to refrain from voting. While there are conceivably many reasons a member might do this, the most common reasons to do this are because the member either simply does not care either way (or can't decide) or because the member has some sort of "conflict of interest" and the member therefore believes he should not vote for the sake of propriety.

On 8/23/2023 at 8:42 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

Why turn in a vote at all if it does not count?

The purpose of turning in a blank ballot (or a ballot marked as "abstain" or "abstention") as opposed to not turning in a ballot at all (which is also an abstention) would be so other members do not know how a member voted (or did not vote). A member is certainly free to not turn in a ballot at all, and doing so will have the same effect. But this would make it clear to those who are observing the member closely that the member abstained. And the purpose of a ballot vote is to protect the secrecy of members' votes (or lack thereof).

On 8/23/2023 at 8:42 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

It seems like this should be 

Total votes cast 33

Votes needed to pass 22

Yes votes 21

No votes 10

Abstentions  2 not counted as a yes or no

When do the abstentions count as a vote?

Abstentions are not votes and never "count as a vote."

What I think you are really asking, however, is when abstentions have the same effect as a "no" vote. This would occur if the organization's rules require, for example, a vote of 2/3 of the members present, or a vote of 2/3 of the entire membership. In those cases, the 2/3 is calculated based on the yes votes compared against the members present (or the entire membership). As a result, an abstention will have the same effect as a no.

But this is generally a bad idea, because it deprives members of the option of maintaining a neutral position, since an abstention has the same effect as a "no" vote.

Edited August 24, 2023 at 02:19 PM by Josh Martin

[Josh Martin]

On 8/23/2023 at 5:14 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

twothirds

vote of a classis or congregation for approval.

But - and this is very important - what is the exact wording your rules use on this matter?

[puzzling]

On 8/23/2023 at 11:14 PM, Guest Jasmine said:

(Robert’s Rules of Order, Newly Revised, 

11th ed., pp. 401-402

Just to say there is a 12th edition 

[Rob G]

I might also add that I think there are some situations where a member might ask to have their abstention minuted.  The example of a conflict of interest is one, I imagine, where a member might want it on record that they did not vote.  But I agree that abstaining without it being recorded who abstained, seems to have no real effect.

[J. J.]

On 11/30/2023 at 12:57 PM, Rob G said:

I might also add that I think there are some situations where a member might ask to have their abstention minuted.  The example of a conflict of interest is one, I imagine, where a member might want it on record that they did not vote.  But I agree that abstaining without it being recorded who abstained, seems to have no real effect.

See "On the Record," National Parliamentarian, Fourth Quarter 2000, "The Abstention" National Parliamentarian, Second Quarter, 1999, and "Voter Protests," National Parliamentarian, Fourth Quarter, 1998.  Interestingly, all three authors are still around, and I've met them in person.