A motion that changed our Bylaws -- no pre-announcement

[A M Jordan]

My organization made a motion and it pass "by common consent" but the item voted on changes a portion of our bylaws. Our next meeting is today and I want to bring to the organization attention that the item is a bylaw change and has to first be presented for consideration and also it has to pass by at least 2//3. How do I bring this up--is there a motion? During what part of the meeting do I address it? Is it two different motions -- the fact it was not presented first and voted at the next meeting and that it passed in a voice vote and no one to tell if it was 2/3?

Please advise

[Rob Elsman]

If a required previous notice is not properly given, a Point of Order may be raised at any time, since the failure violates the rights of absent members and creates a continuing breach.

[puzzling]

What do your bylaws say about changing them? (The old version)

If the bylaws don't allow change without notification, raising a point of order (maybe followed by appeal) is the correct procedure. (Continuing breach) 

The same procedure for if the bylaws are silent and RONR is the parliamentary authority mentioned in the bylaws. 

Get some members together read RONR together and plan who will do what (raise the point of order, second the point of order, raise the appeal iv needed, second the appeal if needed) 

[Atul Kapur]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:24 AM, A M Jordan said:

I want to bring to the organization attention that the item is a bylaw change and has to first be presented for consideration and also it has to pass by at least 2//3.

Do your bylaws actually require these two things?

On 9/12/2023 at 8:24 AM, A M Jordan said:

it pass "by common consent"

Does this mean that no one objected, what RONR would call unanimous or general consent? If so, then it met (exceeded, even) the 2/3 threshold.

On 9/12/2023 at 8:24 AM, A M Jordan said:

it passed in a voice vote and no one to tell if it was 2/3

I interpret "voice vote," to mean those in favour were told to say "Aye" and those opposed to say "No." That us inappropriate if the motion required a 2/3 vote. That is why I ask for clarification as to how the vote was done.

[A M Jordan]

Atul,

Yes, our bylaws requires a prenotice and 2/3 vote to amend a bylaw.

I know they will say it doesn't change the bylaw but it does.

[Joshua Katz]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:34 AM, A M Jordan said:

I know they will say it doesn't change the bylaw but it does.

Wait, I agreed with my colleagues as I read through the thread, but then saw this and now think we need more information. How exactly can this be in dispute?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:34 AM, A M Jordan said:

I know they will say it doesn't change the bylaw but it does.

That can't be a matter of opinion.  Either the bylaws continue to say exactly what they said before, word for word, and punctuation mark for punctuation mark, or they now say something different than they used to say.

Which is it?

[Atul Kapur]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:34 AM, A M Jordan said:

I know they will say it doesn't change the bylaw but it does.

Well, this may change things. Could it be that the motion is in conflict with the current bylaws? That is, it would require a change in the bylaws to be allowed to do what the motion calls for?

If that is the case, then the point of order that you would raise is different; it is that "a main motion has been adopted that conflicts with the bylaws" based on RONR (12th ed.) 23:6(a).

If you can share more details about the motion itself, you are more likely to get a more specific reply.

Oh, and when you do, please fill in the details I requested about how the vote was actually taken.

Edited September 12, 2023 at 05:22 PM by Atul Kapur

[Josh Martin]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:24 AM, A M Jordan said:

How do I bring this up--is there a motion? During what part of the meeting do I address it? Is it two different motions -- the fact it was not presented first and voted at the next meeting and that it passed in a voice vote and no one to tell if it was 2/3?

You would bring up this matter by raising a Point of Order, likely during new business. One Point of Order is sufficient, and you can state both reasons why you believe the amendment to the bylaws is null and void. It seems there may be a suggestion that previous notice was not given. If this is correct, that would be a continuing breach.

I would probably focus just on that one rather than the voice vote, as the lack of notice is a far more serious issue. While it's not recommended to take a 2/3 vote by a voice vote, it's not actually prohibited, and it's certainly not a continuing breach.

On 9/12/2023 at 8:34 AM, A M Jordan said:

I know they will say it doesn't change the bylaw but it does.

I'm confused as to how there is a dispute on this matter. Whether a motion is an amendment to the bylaws is generally fairly obvious.

Are you perhaps suggesting that the motion in question was not presented as an amendment to the bylaws but, in your opinion, the motion conflicts with the bylaws? To the extent this is correct, that would also be a continuing breach.

It would be quite helpful if we could have more details concerning the details of this "amendment" and concerning the rules for amendment in the bylaws.