Postpone Indefinitely in a committee

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

So in a standing committee are all meetings one session?  I think that gives it a purpose to make.

[J. J.]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:44 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Because PI kills for entire session.  No one can bring it up again.

Postpone Indefinitely, if adopted, may be reconsidered. 

I really see no value in doing, except it delays things.   

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

On 10/5/2023 at 7:54 AM, J. J. said:

Postpone Indefinitely, if adopted, may be reconsidered. 

I really see no value in doing, except it delays things.   

Only by those not on losing side.

[J. J.]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:56 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Only by those not on losing side.

Someone abstains and then moves it later. 

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

Yes but still not someone on losing side.

[Dan Honemann]

On 10/5/2023 at 10:00 AM, J. J. said:

Someone abstains and then moves it later. 

J.J., do you have any doubt as to the correctness of Mr. Seebeck's answers to your questions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan Honemann]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:53 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

I cannot even begin to explain .... Josh and JJ understand.  We are .... different.

I think these gentlemen can speak for themselves here in this forum.

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

Oh I'm sure they can.

[Rob Elsman]

Oh, I misspoke; you're correct.

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

So... are all meetings of a standing committee one session?

[J. J.]

On 10/5/2023 at 10:05 AM, Dan Honemann said:

J.J., do you have any doubt as to the correctness of Mr. Seebeck's answers to your questions?

No, I was referring to reconsider. 

[Rob Elsman]

I think the notion of a "dirty trick" is illuminative.  Among people who have not put in the minimal effort to learn proper parliamentary procedure, there is a commonly held opinion that parliamentary procedure, in general, is just a big bag of "dirty tricks" used by smarty pants to dupe a body into conforming to their will.  I get that.  As you are probably aware, I am a big fan of an organization providing means for continuing education to combat just such a notion and embolden members to fully participate in proceedings with confidence.

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

I agree.  I try.  But I used to feel that way too so I get it.

[Josh Martin]

On 10/4/2023 at 3:12 PM, J. J. said:

In a standing committee, may postpone indefinitely be made in regard:

A.  To a main motion that was referred to the committee?

No. The committee does not "own" the motion referred to it by the parent assembly and may not permanently dispose of it, unless so authorized under the organization's rules.

The committee may recommend that the parent assembly postpone the motion indefinitely, but the committee itself may not do so, any more than the committee could permanently dispose of the motion by rejecting it.

On 10/4/2023 at 3:12 PM, J. J. said:

B.  To a main motion being proposed by a member of the committee, during a meeting of the committee?

Yes. A main motion offered by a member of a committee is simply a proposal that the committee take up the motion. The committee is free to dispose of such a motion in such manner as it sees fit, except to the extent the parent assembly has instructed otherwise.

Since Postpone Indefinitely is debatable, I do not see any issue here.

On 10/5/2023 at 7:10 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Because the question cannot be called on a committee in order to get the unfettered mature judgment of the Committee.  This seems to be a way to shut down a full discussion that would violate that spirit at least.

But the motion to Postpone Indefinitely is debatable, and debate on the motion to Postpone Indefinitely can include debate on the merits of the main motion. So a motion to Postpone Indefinitely, in and of itself, will not "shut down a full discussion" or prevent the "unfettered mature judgment of the Committee."

On 10/5/2023 at 8:05 AM, Rob Elsman said:

With respect to question "A", the proper answer depends on whether the committee has been given the power not to report.  For example, it is often the case that the Resolutions Committee of a convention will be given the power to permanently dispose of resolutions that have been referred to it.  However, in most local units of ordinary societies, standing and special committees do not have the power to dispose of main motions that have been referred--there is no such thing as "pigeonholing" these kinds of motions, and the parent body has the ability to discharge the committee if it fails to report after a reasonable time.  So, I think there is no single answer that universally applies.

My original response assumes that the committee has not "been given the power not to report" and the rules in RONR are controlling. To the extent the organization's rules grant the committee "the power to permanently dispose of resolutions that have been referred to it," I agree that would change things.

On 10/5/2023 at 8:05 AM, Rob Elsman said:

With respect to question "B", I cannot see what particular parliamentary purpose the subsidiary motion, Postpone Indefinitely, would serve in an ordinary standing committee.  Unlike an assembly, an ordinary committee does not "go on record" on behalf of the society, so there really is no reason for the committee to simply reject the main motion initiated by the member of the committee.  Perhaps more information would be helpful, but, as of now, I am of the opinion that nothing is to be gained by moving Postpone Indefinitely in an ordinary standing committee.

While I concur that I am generally somewhat puzzled as to what practical purpose Postpone Indefinitely serves in a committee, I do not see a reason why the motion is out of order, at least with respect to a motion offered by a member of the committee.

On 10/5/2023 at 8:25 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

I think I said above why desirable.  A motion the committee does not wish to allow a minority to go on at length about with amendments they feel are useless, eating up committee time, when a majority of them (potentially) do not want to consider.  It is a way to allow debate on the big picture, without getting into the weeds of dozens of amendments.  This committee literally has spent 6-8 hours on one proposal before which is fine when a majority of the committee likes the general idea but wants to refine, but this motion it is thought that possibly a majority of the committee does not want the basic idea no matter how amended or wants to spend time on other proposals rather than the work that would cause this one to be remotely acceptable.

The motion to Amend has higher rank than Postpone Indefinitely.

The only way the committee will really be able to prevent considering an idea a minority of the committee wishes to consider is by limiting debate - which it may not do unless so authorized by the parent assembly.

On 10/5/2023 at 8:38 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Still confused, so are you saying that when a motion to postpone indefinitely is pending someone can move to amend the main motion?

Yes.

On 10/5/2023 at 8:38 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Don't you have to dispose of the pending motion to postpone indefinitely first?

No.

On 10/5/2023 at 8:44 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Because PI kills for entire session.  No one can bring it up again.

But Reconsider is much easier to move and adopt in a committee. So the committee is still free to take up this matter if it later changes its mind.

On 10/5/2023 at 8:52 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

That's not correct.  37:35(3)

cannot have voted with losing side

Yes. But it can be made by someone who voted on the prevailing side, someone who abstained, or someone who was absent, unlike in a full assembly, where it can be made only by a member who voted on the prevailing side.

On 10/5/2023 at 8:54 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

So in a standing committee are all meetings one session?  I think that gives it a purpose to make.

No, that's just special committees.

Edited October 5, 2023 at 02:59 PM by Josh Martin

[J. J.]

On 10/5/2023 at 10:59 AM, Josh Martin said:

No, that's just special committees.

I think that depends on how the standing committee conducts itself.  I have seen some that do adopt an agenda that may cover several months worth of meetings.