The Role and Place of Discussions

[DKW]

A few questions about the "discussion" segment of Roberts Rules.

In a previous club, we would have a subject introduced, thoroughly discuss the pros and cons, then a motion would be made to approve the motion (or not), which would be seconded and THEN the president would call for discussion. There was usually very little further discussion, if any, and a vote would then be called for. My question is, in the above scenario, what is to be discussed at the time when "discussion" is called, especially since the subject seemed to have been thoroughly hashed out by then? Is it simply a last chance opportunity to discuss the subject further, or is it a seperate discussion about the motion itself?

However, In some information I have read, it almost makes it sound that any item on an agenda needs to have a motion made in order to proceed. And if approved, then it must be seconded, and THEN discussion is called for. But after talking this over with individuals whose knowledge in this area I somewhat respect, I was convinced that is NOT correct.

So, exactly what is the place and purpose of calling for discussion when a motion has been made and seconded?  

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:13 PM, DKW said:

However, In some information I have read, it almost makes it sound that any item on an agenda needs to have a motion made in order to proceed. And if approved, then it must be seconded, and THEN discussion is called for. But after talking this over with individuals whose knowledge in this area I somewhat respect, I was convinced that is NOT correct.

I suggest reading the official books.

The Robert's Rules method is motion first, then debate, then vote. 

On 10/30/2023 at 8:13 PM, DKW said:

So, exactly what is the place and purpose of calling for discussion when a motion has been made and seconded?

The purpose of debate is to hear reasons for or against adopting the motion, or suggestions for improvement (motions to Amend) or other subsidiary actions. 

 

 

[DKW]

On 10/30/2023 at 5:33 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

I suggest reading the official books.

The Robert's Rules method is motion first, then debate, then vote. 

The purpose of debate is to hear reasons for or against adopting the motion, or suggestions for improvement (motions to Amend) or other subsidiary actions. 

 

So to clarify, when an item is on the agenda, we need to have a motion made (and seconded) to discuss the agenda item before any explanation about it or any other discussion about it can be conducted. Then it is voted on. Correct?

[Joshua Katz]

Yes, with a certain exception. Is this a board? If so, how large is it?

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 10/30/2023 at 9:11 PM, DKW said:

 

So to clarify, when an item is on the agenda, we need to have a motion made (and seconded) to discuss the agenda item before any explanation about it or any other discussion about it can be conducted. Then it is voted on. Correct?

No. If you want to learn how a meeting is supposed to be conducted, you really ought to at least get a copy of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief and read it. Then you should come here to ask questions about anything you find confusing, or difficult to apply to a particular situation. 

First of all, a meeting does not need to have an agenda, as Robert's Rules contains a standard order of business that is adequate for the regular meetings of most organizations. 

Second, there are often reports from officers, boards, and committees, which may contain explanations and recommendations regarding particular items of business. At the appropriate point in the order of business (or as provided for on an agenda of a particular meeting), these reports may be delivered by the reporting officer or member without any motion first having been made on the subject. 

If any action is to be taken following such reports, or at the initiative of a member without a report having been given, then a motion to take the particular action should be made — not a motion to discuss the item. After the motion is made (and seconded if required), debate is had on whether or not to take the action proposed by the motion.

Finally, when the debate has ended, the motion is voted on by the assembly. 

[DKW]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:25 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

No. If you want to learn how a meeting is supposed to be conducted, you really ought to at least get a copy of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief and read it. Then you should come here to ask questions about anything you find confusing, or difficult to apply to a particular situation. 

First of all, a meeting does not need to have an agenda, as Robert's Rules contains a standard order of business that is adequate for the regular meetings of most organizations. 

Second, there are often reports from officers, boards, and committees, which may contain explanations and recommendations regarding particular items of business. At the appropriate point in the order of business (or as provided for on an agenda of a particular meeting), these reports may be delivered by the reporting officer or member without any motion first having been made on the subject. 

If any action is to be taken following such reports, or at the initiative of a member without a report having been given, then a motion to take the particular action should be made — not a motion to discuss the item. After the motion is made (and seconded if required), debate is had on whether or not to take the action proposed by the motion.

Finally, when the debate has ended, the motion is voted on by the assembly. 

Actually, I have read quite a bit of stuff concerning Roberts but still find some issues confusing - hence why I am posting here. IF i had a complete understanding about everything - I would not be wasting your time or mine by posting here. Unfortunately, many individuals have different views and interpretations of Roberts - even the experts. And unless one lives and breathes it like some apparently do, it is not an easy and intuitive subject to get a handle on.  

Our club, a hobby club of about 35 members, has always had an agenda format. Officers make reports and then old business is dealt with. When new business is arrived at, it is typical for a member to have placed an item on the agenda, usually a project they want permission to undertake, and at this point there are usually quite a few questions and back and forth discussion. Is it acceptable at that time to entertain those questions and discussions or should the member simply give their description, followed by a motion and second, and THEN any discussion about it should take place? In other words, can there be a give and take session when the member is stating what they want to do or should that wait until the discussion? 

If the entire process above is backwards I would like to know how it SHOULD go so I can explain and try to convince the rest of the members that how it has been getting done has been wrong and in what ways can we bring it into line with proper procedure.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 10/30/2023 at 11:00 PM, DKW said:

Actually, I have read quite a bit of stuff concerning Roberts but still find some issues confusing - hence why I am posting here. IF i had a complete understanding about everything - I would not be wasting your time or mine by posting here. Unfortunately, many individuals have different views and interpretations of Roberts - even the experts. And unless one lives and breathes it like some apparently do, it is not an easy and intuitive subject to get a handle on.  

I understand that, which is why I'm recommending that you start by reading the official In Brief guide. In my opinion, that is a better way to get a handle on the basics than by attempting to get one question answered at a time in this forum — although you are welcome to try.

On 10/30/2023 at 11:00 PM, DKW said:

Our club, a hobby club of about 35 members, has always had an agenda format. Officers make reports and then old business is dealt with.

In Robert's Rules, there is no such category as "old business." If an item of new business is postponed or formally carried over from one meeting to the next, it is considered under unfinished business or general orders. If it is not formally carried over, then the assembly is finished with it, but it can be brought up again at another meeting as new.

On 10/30/2023 at 11:00 PM, DKW said:

When new business is arrived at, it is typical for a member to have placed an item on the agenda, usually a project they want permission to undertake, and at this point there are usually quite a few questions and back and forth discussion. Is it acceptable at that time to entertain those questions and discussions or should the member simply give their description, followed by a motion and second, and THEN any discussion about it should take place? In other words, can there be a give and take session when the member is stating what they want to do or should that wait until the discussion?

A member should think about what it is that he or she wants done — preferably before the meeting and in consultation with some other members — with enough clarity to make a proposal in the form of a motion. The member should make the motion at the meeting (after seeking and obtaining recognition from the chair) and pass a written copy to the chair, or submit a written copy to the secretary before the meeting. Before the member makes the motion, there should not be any debate, although the chair may guide some some brief discussion to come up with a properly worded motion.

After the chair restates the member's motion, the member is entitled to first preference in obtaining the floor, at which point he or she can explain the motion and speak in favor it. During this speech, the member may consent to be interrupted for questions while speaking. The chair can also allow the member to respond to factual questions raised later, but the member who made the motion is not entitled to enter again into debate until after every other member who wishes to speak in debate has had the opportunity to do so.

On 10/30/2023 at 11:00 PM, DKW said:

If the entire process above is backwards I would like to know how it SHOULD go so I can explain and try to convince the rest of the members that how it has been getting done has been wrong and in what ways can we bring it into line with proper procedure.

If Robert's Rules has been adopted, then at some point the members must have been convinced that it should be followed. If you are the president, you already were given the job of following those rules and you should not first try to convince the rest of the members of anything other than what the rules actually say. You do not need to make reference to improper procedures of the past, but simply explain what the correct procedure is.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 10/30/2023 at 11:37 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

The chair can also allow the member to respond to factual questions raised later, but the member who made the motion is not entitled to enter again into debate until after every other member who wishes to speak in debate has had the opportunity to do so.

To clarify, by "questions raised later," I mean questions raised after the member who made the motion has yielded the floor after his speech in debate, but still while the pending motion is being debated (or at least before the motion has been put to a vote).

Edited October 31, 2023 at 01:30 PM by Shmuel Gerber

[DKW]

Thanks for your replies.

Aren't "old business" and "unfinished business" just a different way of saying basically the same thing? Asking because I have heard them used interchangably in different clubs/organizations.

[George Mervosh]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:01 PM, DKW said:

Thanks for your replies.

Aren't "old business" and "unfinished business" just a different way of saying basically the same thing? Asking because I have heard them used interchangably in different clubs/organizations.

No. Unfinished business is defined and covered in RONR In Brief, in Chapter 2, C. 3. and in RONR (12th ed.), 41:21-26.   

Edited October 31, 2023 at 05:26 PM by George Mervosh

[Joshua Katz]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:01 PM, DKW said:

Aren't "old business" and "unfinished business" just a different way of saying basically the same thing? Asking because I have heard them used interchangably in different clubs/organizations.

In my experience, organizations that refer to old business typically do not treat it in a way that is coextensive with what RONR includes in unfinished business. They typically include anything that's been discussed before.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:17 PM, George Mervosh said:

No. Unfinished business is defined and covered in RONR In Brief, in Chapter 2, C. 3. and in RONR (12th ed.), 41:21-26.   

While "old business" is a term that is not defined anywhere and is therefore deprecated.