Meeting – committee chair presiding at board

[Guest Ben]

In a general meeting is the president allowed to make a motion for a committee that he chairs? 

[Dan Honemann]

On 11/21/2023 at 7:01 AM, Guest Ben said:

In a general meeting is the president allowed to make a motion for a committee that he chairs? 

No, he should not make the report. If the committee chairman is also the presiding officer of the assembly, the committee should select another one of its members to act as its reporting member.

[Guest Ben]

Does this depend on the size of of board? 

[Dan Honemann]

On 11/21/2023 at 10:28 AM, Guest Ben said:

Does this depend on the size of of [sic] board? 

In my opinion, no.

[Rob Elsman]

In a board operating under the "relaxed" rules for small boards, the president of the board who is also the chairman of a committee that is subordinate to the board may operate as the reporting member of the committee to the board, since, in this situation, the president of the board participates fully in the deliberative process just as would any other member of the board.

[Rob Elsman]

Well, there you go. 😂

[Guest Ben]

On 11/21/2023 at 9:59 AM, Rob Elsman said:

In a board operating under the "relaxed" rules for small boards, the president of the board who is also the chairman of a committee that is subordinate to the board may operate as the reporting member of the committee to the board, since, in this situation, the president of the board participates fully in the deliberative process just as would any other member of the board.

So in the committee meeting or in the general meeting of the board or directors? Or both? 

[Guest Ben]

So the president can make motions in a general meeting of the board or directors on the meeting or just in committee meetings or both? 

[Rob Elsman]

In a committee that is small enough to operate under the "relaxed" rules for boards and committees, the chairman of the committee should fully participate in the proceedings just like any other member of the committee.  He may make motions, join in the debate, and vote.

As I said above, it is my understanding of the "relaxed" rules for small boards and committees that the dispensing of the requirement for the chair to maintain the appearance of impartiality liberates him to function in such boards and committees just like the other members; that is, he may make motions, engage fully in the debate, and vote..

[Atul Kapur]

On 11/21/2023 at 11:12 AM, Rob Elsman said:

In a committee that is small enough to operate under the "relaxed" rules for boards and committees,

The "relaxed" rules found in 49:21 that apply to small boards are used by all standing and special committees, no matter the size of the committee, unless instructed otherwise by the parent body. 

"The informalities and modifications of the regular rules of parliamentary procedure listed in 49:21 for use in small boards are applicable during the meetings of all standing and special committees, unless the committee is otherwise instructed by the society" 50:25

and

"If a standing or special committee is so large that it can function best in the manner of a full-scale assembly, it should be instructed that the informalities and modifications of the regular rules of parliamentary procedure listed for small boards in 49:21 are not to apply to its proceedings. The parent assembly may adopt such instructions to the committee by majority vote." 50:26

[Dan Honemann]

On 11/21/2023 at 11:12 AM, Rob Elsman said:

In a committee that is small enough to operate under the "relaxed" rules for boards and committees, the chairman of the committee should fully participate in the proceedings just like any other member of the committee.  He may make motions, join in the debate, and vote.

As I said above, it is my understanding of the "relaxed" rules for small boards and committees that the dispensing of the requirement for the chair to maintain the appearance of impartiality liberates him to function in such boards and committees just like the other members; that is, he may make motions, engage fully in the debate, and vote..

RONR, in setting forth the less formal procedures that may be followed in meetings of small boards, says that the  chair "may speak in informal discussions and in debate, and vote on all questions", but does not say that the chair may make motions. What it says, in the footnote to 49:21(7) is the following:

"Informal discussion may be initiated by the chairman himself, which, in effect, enables the chairman to submit his own proposals without formally making a motion as described in 4:4–8 (although he has the right to make a motion if he wishes)."

 

 

[J. J.]

On 11/21/2023 at 1:52 PM, Dan Honemann said:

RONR, in setting forth the less formal procedures that may be followed in meetings of small boards, says that the  chair "may speak in informal discussions and in debate, and vote on all questions", but does not say that the chair may make motions. What it says, in the footnote to 49:21(7) is the following:

"Informal discussion may be initiated by the chairman himself, which, in effect, enables the chairman to submit his own proposals without formally making a motion as described in 4:4–8 (although he has the right to make a motion if he wishes)."

 

 

How would that be different from the chair making a motion?

Further, how would be it be properly minuted?

[Dan Honemann]

On 11/21/2023 at 1:57 PM, J. J. said:

How would that be different from the chair making a motion?

In this respect, what is said in 49:21(7) should be read in conjunction with what is said in 49:21(4) and (5), which provide as follows:

4) Informal discussion of a subject is permitted while no motion is pending. 

5) When a proposal is perfectly clear to all present, a vote can be taken without a motion's having been introduced. Unless agreed to by unanimous consent, however, all proposed actions must be approved by vote under the same rules as in larger meetings, except that a vote can be taken initially by a show of hands, which is often a better method in small meetings.

What the footnote to 49:21(7) is telling you is that the informal discussion referred to in 49:21(4) may be (and often is) initiated by the chairman himself, and a decision with respect to what is being discussed can be arrived at either by unanimous consent or by a vote, without any motion having been made.

On 11/21/2023 at 1:57 PM, J. J. said:

Further, how would be it be properly minuted?

"Following a discussion, the board agreed that ...", or some such thing.

 

[Atul Kapur]

Please help me understand 

On 11/21/2023 at 1:52 PM, Dan Honemann said:

RONR ... does not say that the chair may make motions.

but your citation of the footnote includes

On 11/21/2023 at 1:52 PM, Dan Honemann said:

he has the right to make a motion if he wishes

 

[J. J.]

On 11/21/2023 at 4:12 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Please help me understand 

but your citation of the footnote includes

 

That was one of my problems with the answer.

 

[Dan Honemann]

On 11/21/2023 at 4:12 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Please help me understand 

but your citation of the footnote includes

 

Yes, of course. If he is a member, he has the right to make motions.  So does the presiding officer of any assembly.

[Rob Elsman]

The reason why the chair refrains from making motions in a larger assembly has to do with the necessary maintenance of the appearance of impartiality. In the small board or committee, the strict adherence to this is not so necessary; indeed, the chair often takes on a leadership role in advocating for some course of action. Since this is so, the chair's exercising his right to make motions is nothing more than a tempest in a teapot.

[Atul Kapur]

On 11/21/2023 at 5:12 PM, Dan Honemann said:

Yes, of course. If he is a member, he has the right to make motions.  So does the presiding officer of any assembly.

43:29 tells us that that the presiding officer has "the same rights in debate as any other member; but the impartiality required of the chair in an assembly precludes his exercising these rights while he is presiding."

4:56 gives a similar rationale for the presiding officer not exercising their right to vote: "If the presiding officer is a member of the assembly or voting body, he has the same voting right as any other member. Except in a small board or a committee, however—unless the vote is secret (that is, unless it is by ballot; 45)—the chair protects his impartial position by exercising his voting right only when his vote would affect the outcome"

Both of these restraints or cautions are removed for committees and small boards in 49:21(7). 

So please help me understand why the right of the presiding officer to make motions is different from the rights to speak in debate and vote? They all seem of a type - related to preserving the appearance of impartiality of the presiding officer - but this one appears to be treated differently. Why is that?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:09 PM, Rob Elsman said:

The reason why the chair refrains from making motions in a larger assembly has to do with the necessary maintenance of the appearance of impartiality. In the small board or committee, the strict adherence to this is not so necessary; indeed, the chair often takes on a leadership role in advocating for some course of action. Since this is so, the chair's exercising his right to make motions is nothing more than a tempest in a teapot.

It may not seem like a big deal, but get yourself a teapot with a tempest in it, and somebody's gonna be needing a mop.

And don't get me started on shooting fish in a barrel.  It's not as easy as you think.  Don't ask me how I know.  

[Dan Honemann]

On 11/21/2023 at 9:16 PM, Atul Kapur said:

43:29 tells us that that the presiding officer has "the same rights in debate as any other member; but the impartiality required of the chair in an assembly precludes his exercising these rights while he is presiding."

4:56 gives a similar rationale for the presiding officer not exercising their right to vote: "If the presiding officer is a member of the assembly or voting body, he has the same voting right as any other member. Except in a small board or a committee, however—unless the vote is secret (that is, unless it is by ballot; 45)—the chair protects his impartial position by exercising his voting right only when his vote would affect the outcome"

Both of these restraints or cautions are removed for committees and small boards in 49:21(7). 

So please help me understand why the right of the presiding officer to make motions is different from the rights to speak in debate and vote? They all seem of a type - related to preserving the appearance of impartiality of the presiding officer - but this one appears to be treated differently. Why is that?

I say again that what the footnote to 49:21(7) tells us is that the informal discussion referred to in 49:21(4) may be (and often is) initiated by the chairman himself, and a decision with respect to what is being discussed can be arrived at either by unanimous consent or by a vote, without any motion having been made.

A reason why the making of a motion is treated differently from debating and voting in this regard is largely a matter of decreasing formality in the procedures used in small boards and committees and becomes rather obvious when you think of how motions are handled.  After a motion has been properly made, the next step that must be taken in its handling is the chair's stating the question on it.  This is an essential step in the handling of a motion since it is this stating of the question by the chair which actually brings the motion before the assembly (see 4:3 and 4:15).

Even in small boards and committees, after a motion has been made the chair must state the question on it (see 4:15)  At best, this will prove to be rather awkward, and so the chair avoids the necessity for doing so by simply initiating informal discussion about what he thinks should be done, as described in the first paragraph of this response.

 

[Rob Elsman]

As long as any uncertainty about what exactly is before the body is completely avoided, the informal approach works fine. However, any awkwardness there may be in making a formal motion may sometimes be worth the time saved sorting out a misunderstanding.