Majority of the Entire Membership

[Wright Stuff]

In a county political party, hypothetically, there are 10,000 members of the party in the county. Of those 10,000 members, 200 attend their precinct meetings where they are elected delegates to the county convention. Of those 200 delegates, 150 people register in advance and pay the fee to attend the county convention. Of the 150 paid registrants, 100 actually show up and are credentialed as (voting) delegates of the convention. The Credentials Committee reports 100 delegates present. What number is the majority of the entire membership? 

1:16    The voting membership of a convention consists of persons who hold proper credentials as delegates or as persons in some other way entitled to such membership, which must be certified and reported to the convention by its Credentials Committee. Whenever the term “majority of the entire membership” is used in this book, it means, in the case of a convention of delegates, a majority of the total number of convention members entitled to vote, as set forth in the official roll of voting members of the convention (44:9(b), 59:25).

44:9(b) ...In a convention of delegates a majority of the entire membership means a majority of the total number of convention members entitled to vote as set forth in the official roll of voting members of the convention (1:16, 59:25–26).

Since you must attend the convention and be a credentialed delegate to vote, it seems to me that answer has to be 51. If not, why not?

[Rob Elsman]

Since the original post provides its own answer, I am uncertain what more is being asked.

[Atul Kapur]

On 1/1/2024 at 4:32 PM, Wright Stuff said:

The Credentials Committee reports 100 delegates present. What number is the majority of the entire membership? 

For the Convention, yes it is 51.

[Wright Stuff]

A very experienced chair disagreed with me when told him I thought it was 51. When we talked, it was very noisy. I'm trying to determine whether he misheard me or I misheard him. I think he said that majority of the entire membership is rarely an issue in political conventions. If I can ever reach him again, I will try to clarify. Maybe there's something in the bylaws that trumps RONR in this case. 

Assuming there is not a contrary provision in the bylaws, it's possible that we've had motions fail when they actually passed. 

[J. J.]

It would be a majority of the entire membership of the body that is meeting.  In the example, the total membership is 100 people, and, in whole numbers, 51 is more than  half, a majority, of 100. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/1/2024 at 7:49 PM, Wright Stuff said:

I think he said that majority of the entire membership is rarely an issue in political conventions.

Well, that may well be true, without affecting the answer.  Is there some particular provision you know of that will require such a vote?

[Wright Stuff]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:58 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Well, that may well be true, without affecting the answer.  Is there some particular provision you know of that will require such a vote?

No. I'm in the study phase. I've been asked to chair a county convention. Think about THAT for a minute. 

[Wright Stuff]

Here's why I get confused. Take this language from RONR in Brief:

For this reason, to adopt or amend special rules of order requires previous notice and a 2/3 vote, or else - with or without previous notice - a vote of a majority of the entire membership of the voting body (not just of those who are present at the meeting).

Does the parenthetical change anything about the discussion above? Does it mean that the number remains at 51 even if some properly credentialed delegates leave? Or does it mean something else?

[Joshua Katz]

On 1/2/2024 at 12:52 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Does it mean that the number remains at 51 even if some properly credentialed delegates leave?

Yes, unless the bylaws provide for a check-out procedure, in which case there's some dispute here, I believe. But it also means (what amounts to much the same thing) that is a bunch of delegates go to the bathroom, nothing changes. The key words are "of the voting body." 

[Wright Stuff]

On 1/2/2024 at 12:55 PM, Joshua Katz said:

Yes, unless the bylaws provide for a check-out procedure, in which case there's some dispute here, I believe. But it also means (what amounts to much the same thing) that is a bunch of delegates go to the bathroom, nothing changes. The key words are "of the voting body." 

So my understanding, in this example, is that to be a part of the "voting body", a person must have been physically present and credentialed at the convention (the number 100 in the example) but the number that constitutes the majority of the entire membership is fixed (unless more people are credentialed or there is a procedure as you describe.)

I realize I'm being overly anal about these things, but I'm trying to learn more than memorize. Once I understand how to properly interpret provisions, such as the one mentioned, I assume I will become less anal. Then again, RONR is all about the details. 

[Joshua Katz]

On 1/2/2024 at 1:03 PM, Wright Stuff said:

realize I'm being overly anal about these things, but I'm trying to learn more than memorize.

I agree that is a much better approach.

On 1/2/2024 at 1:03 PM, Wright Stuff said:

So my understanding, in this example, is that to be a part of the "voting body", a person must have been physically present and credentialed at the convention (the number 100 in the example) but the number that constitutes the majority of the entire membership is fixed (unless more people are credentialed or there is a procedure as you describe.)

I agree, I think. Whether they need to be physically present and credentialed is ultimately a bylaws issue too, but in the hypothetical you gave, I agree they do to be part of the voting body. Perhaps akin to a person not being part of a general membership assembly until actually completing the membership steps in the bylaws. I'm not sure I'd say the number is fixed, just that, absent the type of bylaws provision I mentioned, there is a ratchet effect. But that might be the same as your "unless more people are credentialed." I think it probably is. Again, that's given your hypothetical. It's also a bylaws interpretation question, ultimately.

[Josh Martin]

On 1/1/2024 at 3:32 PM, Wright Stuff said:

In a county political party, hypothetically, there are 10,000 members of the party in the county. Of those 10,000 members, 200 attend their precinct meetings where they are elected delegates to the county convention. Of those 200 delegates, 150 people register in advance and pay the fee to attend the county convention. Of the 150 paid registrants, 100 actually show up and are credentialed as (voting) delegates of the convention. The Credentials Committee reports 100 delegates present. What number is the majority of the entire membership? 

The membership of a convention, as that term is defined in RONR, is the credentialed delegates.

On 1/1/2024 at 3:32 PM, Wright Stuff said:

44:9(b) ...In a convention of delegates a majority of the entire membership means a majority of the total number of convention members entitled to vote as set forth in the official roll of voting members of the convention (1:16, 59:25–26).

Since you must attend the convention and be a credentialed delegate to vote, it seems to me that answer has to be 51. If not, why not?

I concur. 44:9(b) is clear on this point.

But I think an important caveat is this - are you asking this question because a.) some rule in RONR requires a majority of the entire membership or b.) some rule in the organization's requires a majority of the entire membership? In the latter case, it would be necessary to review the exact wording of the rule in question.

On 1/1/2024 at 6:49 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Assuming there is not a contrary provision in the bylaws, it's possible that we've had motions fail when they actually passed. 

Just to be sure we are clear on this, it is much too late to correct such errors at this time. But certainly the organization can apply the correct rule in the future.

On 1/2/2024 at 11:52 AM, Wright Stuff said:

Here's why I get confused. Take this language from RONR in Brief:

For this reason, to adopt or amend special rules of order requires previous notice and a 2/3 vote, or else - with or without previous notice - a vote of a majority of the entire membership of the voting body (not just of those who are present at the meeting).

Does the parenthetical change anything about the discussion above?

Not really.

I would note that the rule in question is referring to assemblies broadly. Conventions are somewhat unusual in this regard. Most assemblies have a membership which continues from one meeting to the next. This isn't true for conventions - a member is a member for that convention only.

In the case of a convention, only persons who are actually checked in with the Credentials Committee are "members" of the convention. Registering in advance doesn't cut it.

Of course, it is very possible to be credentialed for a convention and to later be absent at various times, so the rule still has some applicability.

On 1/2/2024 at 11:52 AM, Wright Stuff said:

Does it mean that the number remains at 51 even if some properly credentialed delegates leave?

It depends on the specific circumstances. In many circumstances, the number of credentialed delegates, and therefore the majority of the entire membership, will certainly remain the same. This would occur, for instance, if:

• A delegate temporarily leaves the meeting hall
• A delegate leaves the convention permanently, but fails to inform the Credentials Committee and surrender his credentials
• A delegate leaves the convention permanently, but is replaced by an upgraded alternate

The one circumstance in which the number of credentialed delegates might be reduced is if:

• The delegate leaves the convention permanently; and
• The delegate properly surrenders his credentials to the Credentials Committee; and
• There are no remaining alternates in the delegation, so no one is upgraded to take the delegate's place.

But even then, I think there is some ambiguity in the rules on this matter, as to whether such a departure in fact reduces the membership of the convention. If it is anticipated that may be an issue, it might be beneficial to clarify this in the convention's rules.

It is also important to check the organization's rules (and the convention's rules) in this matter, as such rules will take precedence over RONR.

Edited January 3, 2024 at 03:13 PM by Josh Martin

[Wright Stuff]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:07 AM, Josh Martin said:

But I think an important caveat is this - are you asking this question because a.) some rule in RONR requires a majority of the entire membership or b.) some rule in the organization's requires a majority of the entire membership? In the latter case, it would be necessary to review the exact wording of the rule in question.

I'm on a mission to understand our bylaws, RONR, and the intersection between the two. I'm probably the most knowledgeable person for RONR in the group, and that's scary. The reality is that I'm trying to encourage better compliance with all rules, which I can't do unless I understand them. 

On 1/3/2024 at 10:07 AM, Josh Martin said:

Just to be sure we are clear on this, it is much too late to correct such errors at this time. But certainly the organization can apply the correct rule in the future.

Clearly

On 1/3/2024 at 10:07 AM, Josh Martin said:

I would note that the rule in question is referring to assemblies broadly. Conventions are somewhat unusual in this regard. Most assemblies have a membership which continues from one meeting to the next. This isn't true for conventions - a member is a member for that convention only.

In the case of a convention, only persons who are actually checked in with the Credentials Committee are "members" of the convention. Registering in advance doesn't cut it.

And that, I think, is part of my confusion -- conventions versus regular meetings. The county has an Executive Committee and a Board. Regarding the Executive Committee, which is probably 60 people. Assume they all show up at a meeting:

Present: 60

2/3 Vote: 40

Majority of the Entire Body: 31

In this case, if a motion is adopted by a 2/3 vote or by a majority of the entire membership, and there are 35 affirmative votes, the motion passes. In the past, I'm not sure, but I think we have probably failed to pass one or more motions that should have passed as the 2/3 vote was not met but the MOEM was met. I don't think anyone in our group has ever heard of MOEM. 

Now assume that of the  60 members, only 51 show up:

Present: 51

2/3 Vote: 34

Majority of the Entire Body: 31 or 26? (Membership continues from one meeting to the next.)

There are no conflicts with the bylaws in any of the questions posed here. 

Edited January 3, 2024 at 06:39 PM by Wright Stuff

[Joshua Katz]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:38 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Now assume that of the  60 members, only 51 show up:

Present: 51

2/3 Vote: 34

Majority of the Entire Body: 31 or 26? (Membership continues from one meeting to the next.)

31. It is irrelevant who is there; the membership is 60.

[Josh Martin]

On 1/3/2024 at 12:38 PM, Wright Stuff said:

In this case, if a motion is adopted by a 2/3 vote or by a majority of the entire membership, and there are 35 affirmative votes, the motion passes. In the past, I'm not sure, but I think we have probably failed to pass one or more motions that should have passed as the 2/3 vote was not met but the MOEM was met. I don't think anyone in our group has ever heard of MOEM. 

This does not surprise me. A great many people, in my experience, incorrectly believe that a motion to Rescind (for example) requires a 2/3 vote, period, and are unaware of the previous notice alternative or the majority of the entire membership alternative.

On 1/3/2024 at 12:38 PM, Wright Stuff said:

In this case, if a motion is adopted by a 2/3 vote or by a majority of the entire membership, and there are 35 affirmative votes, the motion passes. In the past, I'm not sure, but I think we have probably failed to pass one or more motions that should have passed as the 2/3 vote was not met but the MOEM was met. I don't think anyone in our group has ever heard of MOEM. 

Now assume that of the  60 members, only 51 show up:

Present: 51

2/3 Vote: 34

Majority of the Entire Body: 31 or 26? (Membership continues from one meeting to the next.)

There are no conflicts with the bylaws in any of the questions posed here. 

The majority of the entire body would still be 31. With a board, there is a set membership. If there are 60 members of the board, the membership is 60 members regardless of how many are present at a particular meeting.

I'd also note that a 2/3 vote, unless your rules provide otherwise, is 2/3 of the members present and voting. So it may well be less than 2/3 of the members present on a particular vote, as members could abstain.

Edited January 3, 2024 at 06:51 PM by Josh Martin

[Wright Stuff]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:51 PM, Josh Martin said:

I'd also note that a 2/3 vote, unless your rules provide otherwise, is 2/3 of the members present and voting. So it may well be less than 2/3 of the members present on a particular vote, as members could abstain.

No argument there. I was trying to keep the numbers simple.

In any case, this thread has been very helpful. A few things are finally coming into focus. Thanks to everyone who has offered input. 

[Atul Kapur]

By the way, @Wright Stuff, note that majority of the entire membership (MEM) is not an alternative in every instance where a ⅔ vote is required. For example, if the bylaws say that amendments require a ⅔ vote, then MEM is not an alternative. Another example is suspend the rules. See Table VI on tinted page t48 for complete information.

[Wright Stuff]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:02 PM, Atul Kapur said:

By the way, @Wright Stuff, note that majority of the entire membership (MEM) is not an alternative in every instance where a ⅔ vote is required. For example, if the bylaws say that amendments require a ⅔ vote, then MEM is not an alternative. Another example is suspend the rules. See Table VI on tinted page t48 for complete information.

Understood. Thanks!