Requiring a Special Rule of Order?

[Atul Kapur]

On 2/18/2024 at 1:30 PM, Tomm said:

If you don't approve the agenda then it holds no force and you must then rely on the standard order of business. But if the standard order of business does not require the agenda to be approved, where does that leave you?

It leaves you with the Standard Order of Business and the unapproved agenda is just someone's guide as to what to expect to be brought up when a particular category of business is called for. 

If an agenda lists several items as General Orders (more likely, the agenda would list them incorrectly as New Business) but the agenda is not adopted, then the agenda just becomes a guide. So, when New Business is called for, any member can rise and make a motion, including a motion regarding an item that was listed in the unapproved agenda.

If the agenda had been approved, then those items would have been dealt with in the order  listed (as General Orders). Since it was not approved, whoever is first recognized can make whichever motion they wish, no matter where it is listed in the unapproved agenda or even if it wasn't listed at all.

[Josh Martin]

On 2/18/2024 at 12:30 PM, Tomm said:

If the agenda is not official until it is approved, and the topic of "Approve the Agenda" is not listed in the standard order of business, a special order of business should be established and that should be a special rule of order?

To the extent that both of the following are correct, yes, I suppose so:

• The organization wishes to use an order of business which is different from the standard order of business.
• The organization wishes to adopt an agenda for every meeting.

On 2/18/2024 at 12:30 PM, Tomm said:

If you don't approve the agenda then it holds no force and you must then rely on the standard order of business. But if the standard order of business does not require the agenda to be approved, where does that leave you?

Once again, the standard order of business does not include approval of the agenda as a standard order of business because, in an assembly which uses the standard order of business, RONR recommends not using an agenda. Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to include this in the order of business.

"In organizations that have adopted this book as parliamentary authority and that have not adopted a special order of business, this series of headings is the prescribed order of business for regular meetings, unless the periods intervening between consecutive regular meetings are usually more than a quarterly time interval (see 9:7)." RONR (12th ed.) 41:6

"It is customary to adopt an agenda or program for each session in organizations that do not hold frequent regular meetings, and at conventions and other sessions that may last for several days (see 59). This is also frequently done when, for any reason, neither the standard order of business nor a special order of business established by rule of the organization is practical or applicable." RONR (12th ed.) 41:60

If there are multiple items under the headings in the standard order of business, RONR has rules for the order in which those items are considered (except for New Business, which is first come, first served). Those rules are discussed in RONR (12th ed.) 41:13-26. It is entirely possible to conduct a meeting in this manner, and to not adopt an agenda, and this is where this all "leaves you" if an assembly governed by the standard order of business chooses not to adopt an agenda.

RONR notes that the Secretary may well prepare a memorandum for the use of the chair and the assembly to serve as a guide, listing the items known to come up under each heading. To the extent this is consistent with the rules governing the standard order of business (or a special order of business adopted by the assembly), no approval is required.

"The presiding officer may find it helpful to have at hand a memorandum of the complete order of business, listing, under headings (2) and (3) as explained below, all known reports which are expected to be presented, and under headings (4) and (5), all matters which the minutes show are due to come up, arranged in proper sequence or, where applicable, listed with the times for which they have been set. The secretary can prepare, or assist the presiding officer to prepare, such a memorandum. In this connection, regarding the practice in some societies or assemblies of providing each member with a copy of the expected agenda in advance of a meeting, see 41:62." RONR (12th ed.) 41:7

To the extent the assembly nonetheless chooses to use an agenda, the agenda must be approved for it to be binding. RONR is clear that this is the case, and notes that "usually this is done at the outset of a session."

"In cases in which an agenda is adopted, usually this is done at the outset of a session and the agenda is intended to cover the entire session. At a session having no prescribed or adopted order of business, such an agenda is followed as a guide by the chair pending its formal adoption and can be adopted by majority vote, even if it contains special orders; it is then the order of business for that session. At a session that already has an order of business, an agenda can be adopted by a majority vote only if it does not create any special orders and does not conflict with the existing order of business; otherwise, a two-thirds vote is required (see also 25:12)." RONR (12th ed.) 41:60

"In some organizations, it is customary to send each member, in advance of a meeting, an order of business or agenda, with some indication of the matters to be considered under each heading. Such an agenda is often provided for information only, with no intention or practice of submitting it for adoption. Unless a precirculated agenda is formally adopted at the session to which it applies, it is not binding as to detail or order of consideration, other than as it lists preexisting orders of the day (41:40ff.) or conforms to the standard order of business (3:16, 41:5ff.) or an order of business prescribed by the rules of the organization (2:16, 3:16)." RONR (12th ed.) 41:62

On 2/18/2024 at 1:33 PM, Tomm said:

So here again, it seems to me that the order of business dictates in which order how the items on the agenda will be acted upon. 

The purpose of both an order of business or an agenda is to dictate in which order the items to be considered by the assembly will be acted upon. I don't think it's correct to say the order of business "dictates in which order how the items on the agenda will be acted upon," for several reasons.

• There may not be an agenda.
• An agenda may, in fact, be adopted (by a 2/3 vote) which deviates from the established order of business, in which case the order provided on the agenda is controlling.
• Even to the extent there is an agenda, there are limitations on the extent to which the order of business dictates the order in which the items will be considered. For example, if the assembly adopts a series of general orders on the agenda, which have not previously been established as general orders, the standard order of business has no guidance for the order in which these items will be considered. Rather, it is the agenda that will establish this order.

The difference between the two* is that an order of business provides general rules applicable to all regular meetings of an assembly. It includes general headings, as well as rules for how the particular items under those headings are ordered. An order of business will naturally not include particular items of business.

* Although technically, an agenda is a type of order of business.

Conversely, an agenda is used for a single meeting. It will include more details such as the particular items anticipated to come up under those headings.

Often, an agenda is used for assemblies for which there is no prescribed order of business. This is the case with assemblies which meet less frequently than quarterly and have not established a special order of business. In such cases, the approval of the agenda requires a majority vote.

On the other hand, if an agenda is used in an assembly for which there is a prescribed order of business, the agenda requires a majority vote if it contains no special orders and does not conflict with the established order of business. Otherwise, it requires a 2/3 vote. For example, the assembly could establish a number of general orders for the agenda and determine the order in which those items will be considered. But if the assembly wished to create a special order, or to deviate in some manner from the prescribed order of business, a 2/3 vote would be required.

"The terms order of business, orders of the day, agenda, and program refer to closely related concepts having to do with the order in which business is taken up in a session (8) and the scheduling of particular business. The meaning of these terms often coincides, although each has its own applications in common usage.

An order of business is any established sequence in which it may be prescribed that business shall be taken up at a session of a given assembly. In the case of ordinary societies that hold frequent regular meetings, an order of business that specifies such a sequence only in terms of certain general types or classes of business and gives only the order in which they are to be taken up is normally prescribed for all regular meetings by the rules of the organization. The typical order of business of this kind is described in 41:5–27. In other cases, such as in a convention, an order of business expressly adopted for a particular session frequently assigns positions, and even times, to specific subjects or items of business; and to this type of order of business the terms agenda and program are applicable, as explained in 41:58–70. Although the terms order of business, agenda, and program relate primarily to the business of an entire session, the same terms are also applied to a part of the whole, in speaking of “the order of business,” “the agenda,” or “the program” of a meeting within a session." RONR (12th ed.) 41:2

But of course, we're all fighting a losing battle on this, and the typical custom in most assemblies these days is to adopt an agenda for every meeting, even if that agenda simply regurgitates the standard order of business.

[Tomm]

On 2/18/2024 at 1:19 PM, Dan Honemann said:

What I am looking for is a reference or link to the thread.

I'll have to see if I can track it down. I typically copy and paste my questions and responses into a WORD document and save them in a RONR file.

I'll search thru my account.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 2/18/2024 at 6:12 PM, Tomm said:

I'll have to see if I can track it down. I typically copy and paste my questions and responses into a WORD document and save them in a RONR file.

I'll search thru my account.

I can't find it either.

[Tomm]

Here's another reference I came across while searching that says, "Yes" you can write a Special Order of Business and can either place it in the bylaws or as a special rule of order.

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/37377-special-order-of-business/

Question being: "So are you saying that a Special Order of Business is only good for one particular agenda or meeting?

What if you wanted to permanently change and rearrange or remove the items of the standard order of business? Wouldn't that now be called a Special Order of Business?"

Response: "Yes, a special order of business can be adopted that would apply to all sessions. Mr. Novosielski thought you were referring to a special order, an understandable mistake.

An order of business could be provided in the bylaws or adopted as a special rule of order."

Edited June 15, 2021 at 06:55 PM by Tim Wynn

[Gary Novosielski]

That's true, but nothing in that thread implies that you should use an agenda concurrent with either type of order of business, either the recommended one or a customized one (intentionally avoiding the terms standard or special).

[Tomm]

I never thought this would be such a difficult question? 

All I want to do is make the Order of Business include the Approval of the agenda. You can't count on the agenda being approved, and it won't be approved if you rely on the standard order of business.

It doesn't make sense to me to say you can't write a special rule of order that provides for a special order of business, and at the same time you're saying that a special rule of order doesn't take precedence over RONR. 

[Josh Martin]

On 2/18/2024 at 6:52 PM, Tomm said:

I never thought this would be such a difficult question? 

All I want to do is make the Order of Business include the Approval of the agenda. You can't count on the agenda being approved, and it won't be approved if you rely on the standard order of business.

Your assembly is free to establish an order of business including “Approval of the Agenda” as a heading if it wishes. As I understand it, what you are trying to say is:

-Your assembly wishes to adopt an agenda for each meeting. Why this is so has not been explained, but one conceivable reason to do so is if the assembly frequently has numerous items of business and limited time.

-Your assembly also wishes to adopt a special order of business, because it wishes to vary from the standard order of business in RONR. This is found to be desirable even although the assembly wishes to adopt an agenda for each meeting because an agenda consistent with this order of business can be adopted by a majority vote, and as a “backup” in case the assembly refuses to adopt an agenda.

-It is believed to be important for this assembly that the order of business specifically list “Approval of the Agenda,” because otherwise the assembly will forget to do this.

On 2/18/2024 at 6:52 PM, Tomm said:

It doesn't make sense to me to say you can't write a special rule of order that provides for a special order of business, and at the same time you're saying that a special rule of order doesn't take precedence over RONR. 

No one has said this.

[Rob Elsman]

On 2/18/2024 at 6:52 PM, Tomm said:

I never thought this would be such a difficult question?

Have you thoroughly read RONR (12th ed.) §41? 

[Dan Honemann]

On 2/18/2024 at 7:52 PM, Tomm said:

I never thought this would be such a difficult question? 

The difficulty stems from the fact that you, Tomm, obviously do not spend anywhere near the time needed to think about any of the responses you receive, particularly the very detailed ones you receive from Mr. Martin, and to carefully review the portions of RONR cited in those responses, before posting again. 

My suggestion to those now responding is to resist posting again until at least 24 hours have expired since the last response.  Hopefully this will encourage a bit more work on Tomm's part. 

 

 

 

 

[Tomm]

On 2/19/2024 at 6:35 AM, Dan Honemann said:

Hopefully this will encourage a bit more work on Tomm's part. 

Okay, I’ve read thru §41, several times.

My initial question was: Question: If the Order of Business makes it mandatory to approve the agenda, does that require a special rule of order?

These are items that caught my eye that makes me believe a special order of business can be established by a special rule of order and they can both be used at the same time.

I respectfully submit the following:

41:4 Within a meeting in which the only items of business that are in order have been specified and set in sequence in advance—as might occur, for example, in a particular meeting of a convention—the orders of the day are identical with the order of business (which, in such a case, is in the form of an agenda or program).

This tells me 2 things, first that a different sequence in the order of business can be established prior to a meeting, and second, the orders of the day can be identical with the order of business and an agenda. So both, orders of business and an agenda, are acceptable to be used at the same time and it’s not necessarily an either, or situation. (Note: the term “meeting of a convention” is only used as an example in this context, so the occurrence of that situation is not limited to conventions.)

41:6 In organizations that have adopted this book as parliamentary authority and that have not adopted a special order of business, this series of headings is the prescribed order of business for regular meetings…

Here again, you can adopt a special order of business with additional headings.

41:31 Roll Call. In some organizations it is customary at meetings to call the roll of officers in order to verify their attendance—or, sometimes in very small societies, even to call the roll of members. If there is a roll call of this nature, it should take place at the end of the opening ceremonies unless a special rule of the organization assigns it a different position in the order of business. The chair announces it by saying, “The Secretary will call the roll of officers [or “will call the roll”].”

This tells me that a special rule of order can modify the standard order of business.

41:46 Relation of Orders of the Day to the Established Order of Business. In assemblies that follow the “standard” order of business explained above, orders of the day for a given session, day, or meeting that are not set for particular hours are taken up under the headings of Special Orders and Unfinished Business and General Orders (see 41:18–26). In cases where an ordinary society has adopted its own order of business for regular meetings, it usually includes similar headings covering such orders of the day. Where an organization’s order of business does not provide such headings, special orders not set for particular hours are taken up before unfinished business and general orders, or (if there are neither of these), at all events before new business. Under the same conditions, general orders are taken up after any unfinished business (that is, business pending at the adjournment of the previous meeting, if any, and orders of the day not disposed of at the time of its adjournment), and before new business unless a later hour is specified (see below).

41:60 Organizations and Meetings in Which Adoption of an Agenda Is Customary. It is customary to adopt an agenda or program for each session in organizations that do not hold frequent regular meetings, and at conventions and other sessions that may last for several days (see 59). This is also frequently done when, for any reason, neither the standard order of business nor a special order of business established by rule of the organization is practical or applicable.

The term “customary” is what caught my eye here. We know that a custom is not a hard fast rule and is only valid until challenged with an actual rule. So although it’s not typical to use both an agenda and the standard or special order of business, it’s not prohibited.

41:61 Procedure for Adoption. In cases in which an agenda is adopted, usually this is done at the outset of a session and the agenda is intended to cover the entire session. At a session having no prescribed or adopted order of business, such an agenda is followed as a guide by the chair pending its formal adoption and can be adopted by majority vote, even if it contains special orders; it is then the order of business for that session. At a session that already has an order of business, an agenda can be adopted by a majority vote only if it does not create any special orders and does not conflict with the existing order of business; otherwise, a two-thirds vote is required (see also 25:12).

In conclusion: It appears that you can use both, and agenda and an order of business at the same time as long as the agenda doesn’t conflict with the order of business, whether standard or special, and you can modify the standard order of business with a special rule of order.

Have I understood these citations correctly?

Thanks.

[Rob Elsman]

On 2/20/2024 at 12:42 PM, Tomm said:

At a session that already has an order of business, an agenda can be adopted by a majority vote only if it does not create any special orders and does not conflict with the existing order of business; otherwise, a two-thirds vote is required (see also 25:12).

This is correct.  In this case, the proposed agenda is just a list of items of business that the assembly wants to be made orders of the day.  If the proposed agenda only creates general orders (by not assigning particular hours for them to be taken up), the agenda can be adopted by majority vote.  On the other hand, if the proposed agenda creates any special orders (by assigning particular hours for them to be taken up), the agenda must be adopted by two-thirds vote.  It is ordinarily not customary to propose and adopt such an agenda at each regular meeting.

In the occasional case where the established order of business is not practical or applicable to use, the assembly can adopt, by a two-thirds vote, an agenda that does not conform to the established order of business.  It is ordinarily not customary to adopt such an agenda at each regular meeting.

It is customary to adopt an agenda (or program) at the beginning of each regular meeting of an assembly that does not meet as frequently as the quarterly time interval.  This is particularly true of conventions of delegates, but it would also apply to those assemblies that only regularly meet annually or semiannually.

 

[Josh Martin]

On 2/20/2024 at 12:42 PM, Tomm said:

In conclusion: It appears that you can use both, and agenda and an order of business at the same time as long as the agenda doesn’t conflict with the order of business, whether standard or special, and you can modify the standard order of business with a special rule of order.

Have I understood these citations correctly?

No one is questioning that an assembly can have an established order of business and also adopt an agenda for every meeting. The question is what the point in doing this.

[Tomm]

On 2/20/2024 at 12:43 PM, Josh Martin said:

No one is questioning that an assembly can have an established order of business and also adopt an agenda for every meeting. The question is what the point in doing this.

The intention, whether right or wrong, was simply include the approval of the agenda in the organizations order of business to insure that it get's approved, which has not always been done in the past.

Thanks for all your responses.

[Rob Elsman]

I think you all ought to totally drop the agenda thing and use the established order of business.  Just you all forget you ever heard of an agenda.  Train yourselves to use §41 as guidance.

[Atul Kapur]

On 2/20/2024 at 4:07 PM, Rob Elsman said:

I think you all ought to totally drop the agenda thing and use the established order of business.  Just you all forget you ever heard of an agenda.  Train yourselves to use §41 as guidance.

You've been preaching this sermon regularly. I'm genuinely curious about your success rate in converting people to this practice?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:26 PM, Tomm said:

The intention, whether right or wrong, was simply include the approval of the agenda in the organizations order of business to insure that it get's approved, which has not always been done in the past.

Thanks for all your responses.

Well, if the intent was to give no weight to whether it was right or wrong, then I suppose you're on the right track.