Committee confidentiality

[Guest Joan Siltanen]

If committee meetings are confidential, how is their business given to the members?

[Josh Martin]

On 3/8/2024 at 11:04 PM, Guest Joan Siltanen said:

If committee meetings are confidential, how is their business given to the members?

I guess I'm not entirely clear on the question. I will first note that it is not necessarily the case that all committee meetings are "confidential," although certainly particular committees may hold some or all of their meetings in executive session. Further, there are rules providing that the deliberations of the committee are not to be referred to during meetings of the parent assembly.

"No one can make allusion in the assembly to what has occurred during the deliberations of the committee, however, unless it is by report of the committee or by unanimous consent." RONR (12th ed.) 51:65

In any event, whether or not the committee meeting was held in executive session, the business of a committee is "given to the members" of the parent assembly through the committee's reports. There are also options for those members of the committee who disagree with the report to submit a "minority report" or to speak in debate against the committee's recommendations. Rules pertaining to reports of committees are discussed in detail in RONR (12th ed.) Section 51.

If the concern is that the committee is meeting in executive session, I would note that the rules pertaining to executive session are not "all or nothing." The committee chair or reporting member is authorized to divulge the action taken to the extent necessary to carry it out. This would certainly include presenting the report to the parent assembly. The committee may also authorize further disclosure, if desired. Additionally, if the recommendation is of a sensitive nature, the parent assembly could itself meet in executive session.

"The general rule is that anything that occurs in executive session may not be divulged to nonmembers (except any entitled to attend). However, action taken, as distinct from that which was said in debate, may be divulged to the extent—and only to the extent—necessary to carry it out. For example, if during executive session a member is expelled or an officer is removed from office, that fact may be disclosed to the extent described in 63:3. If the assembly wishes to further lift the secrecy of action taken in an executive session, it may adopt a motion to do so, which is a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted (35). In making or debating such a motion, the members must be careful, if the assembly is not in executive session, to preserve the existing secrecy." RONR (12th ed.) 9:26

I hope this general response helps. If you can provide more details about the situation, I might be able to provide a more specific response.

[Rob Elsman]

It is the committee's deliberation that is confidential. This is necessary to give committee members the freedom to make frank arguments and reach frank conclusions. The committee communicates to its parent body by way of reports, written in conformity to the relevant rules and instructions.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/9/2024 at 12:04 AM, Guest Joan Siltanen said:

If committee meetings are confidential, how is their business given to the members?

Through their periodic reports to their parent body.  The report is adopted by a majority vote in committee, and contains whatever the committee wishes the body to which it reports to be aware of.  The actual deliberations that took place in the committee may not be raised in debate on any recommended motions that the report might contain, unless necessary details of those deliberations were intentionally included in the report.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/9/2024 at 9:53 AM, Rob Elsman said:

It is the committee's deliberation that is confidential. This is necessary to give committee members the freedom to make frank arguments and reach frank conclusions. The committee communicates to its parent body by way of reports, written in conformity to the relevant rules and instructions.

I am not aware of a rule in RONR (12th ed.) which provides that committee meetings are "confidential."

[Rob Elsman]

RONR (12th ed.) 50:27 tells us that only committee members have the right to be present during the committee's deliberations.  In other words, the deliberations themselves are not carried out during a hearing.  The purpose for these closed deliberations is, as I have already said, "...to give committee members the freedom to make frank arguments and reach frank conclusions".  In other words, in preparing the committee's report, the members of the committee may need to say things freely that they would not feel comfortable saying in front of a crowd.

[Richard Brown]

@Rob Elsman I agree with @Josh Martin. There is nothing in RONR that makes committee meetings confidential. 

[J. J.]

On 3/10/2024 at 7:21 PM, Rob Elsman said:

RONR (12th ed.) 50:27 tells us that only committee members have the right to be present during the committee's deliberations.  In other words, the deliberations themselves are not carried out during a hearing.  The purpose for these closed deliberations is, as I have already said, "...to give committee members the freedom to make frank arguments and reach frank conclusions".  In other words, in preparing the committee's report, the members of the committee may need to say things freely that they would not feel comfortable saying in front of a crowd.

Well, if that is the case and there is no rule prohibiting it, they can go into executive session.  Without that, there is no confidentiality. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/11/2024 at 11:52 PM, J. J. said:

Well, if that is the case and there is no rule prohibiting it, they can go into executive session.  Without that, there is no confidentiality. 

Well, not absolutely none.

In 51:65 we find:

[I]n debate on any written or oral report in the assembly, any member of the reporting committee who does not concur has the same right as any other member of the assembly to speak individually in opposition. No one can make allusion in the assembly to what has occurred during the deliberations of the committee, however, unless it is by report of the committee or by unanimous consent.

[J. J.]

On 3/12/2024 at 12:14 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

Well, not absolutely none.

In 51:65 we find:

[I]n debate on any written or oral report in the assembly, any member of the reporting committee who does not concur has the same right as any other member of the assembly to speak individually in opposition. No one can make allusion in the assembly to what has occurred during the deliberations of the committee, however, unless it is by report of the committee or by unanimous consent.

Non committee members can sit in the meeting, and repeat the arguments (pro/con) that they heard.

[Rob Elsman]

On 3/12/2024 at 8:20 AM, J. J. said:

Non committee members can sit in the meeting, and repeat the arguments (pro/con) that they heard.

If the members cannot, why would it be logical to say that non-members can? Isn't that a little goofy?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/12/2024 at 9:20 AM, J. J. said:

Non committee members can sit in the meeting, and repeat the arguments (pro/con) that they heard.

You and I seem to have a different interpretation of the words No one.

The rule does not say "No committee member", it says "No one".

[Rob Elsman]

I was particularly responding to @J. J. speaking of "...non-committee members...", but it is true that the rule says "No one..."  That would include necessary staff members of the committee who might also be members of the society.

Again, I would emphasize the purpose of the rule.  In order to have a thorough-going deliberation to arrive at the best judgment, it is necessary for the committee members to have the freedom to speak frankly without reservation.  

[J. J.]

On 3/12/2024 at 12:55 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

You and I seem to have a different interpretation of the words No one.

The rule does not say "No committee member", it says "No one".

I am not suggesting that the observer (assembly member) can claim "Committee Member A made Argument 1 against the proposal."  I am suggesting that the observer can make Argument 1 during debate in the meeting of the assembly. That is no allusion to anything.

[Rob Elsman]

The same thing goes if the committee went into executive session, so why the earlier response?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/12/2024 at 3:18 PM, J. J. said:

I am not suggesting that the observer (assembly member) can claim "Committee Member A made Argument 1 against the proposal."  I am suggesting that the observer can make Argument 1 during debate in the meeting of the assembly. That is no allusion to anything.

Thank you for clarifying.  Yes that's correct; even an assembly member who was on the committee, and who made Argument 1 in committee, can make Argument 1 in the assembly debate on the committee's report, but without alluding to the actual deliberations.

[J. J.]

On 3/12/2024 at 3:28 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Thank you for clarifying.  Yes that's correct; even an assembly member who was on the committee, and who made Argument 1 in committee, can make Argument 1 in the assembly debate on the committee's report, but without alluding to the actual deliberations.

There are many cases where you cannot use the information obtained in an executive outside of that session.  That is not the case with a committee that met in open session. 

[Rob Elsman]

It isn't ever the case? Are you sure?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/12/2024 at 3:36 PM, J. J. said:

There are many cases where you cannot use the information obtained in an executive outside of that session.  That is not the case with a committee that met in open session. 

I'm not sure I see a difference.   Suppose there is an executive session and I provide information during debate.  The other members present have obtained that information during executive session, but I had the information when I walked in.  Would it be fair to say that I did not obtain the information there?  Would I be free to provide this information in other contexts, so long as I did not state that I revealed it in executive session, or reveal how others reacted to it?

I think so. unless there was some other reason that I need to keep it secret.

[Richard Brown]

I agree with JJ, but I am going to take a slightly different approach. Forget all this business about executive session. Nothing has been said to indicate that this committee is meeting in executive session. Let’s assume it is an ordinary committee meeting. Mr. Esman is taking the position that all committee deliberations are confidential regardless of whether the committee is in executive session   I Disagree strongly.

If a committee is meeting and I, as a nonmember of the committee, happen to be present during the deliberations or perhaps just overhear the deliberations from another room, in either case, those committee negotiations are not confidential, and I am quite free to go to lunch with a friend or another member of the organization and tell that friend everything that was said during the committee meeting. What was said in the meeting is not confidential unless it was in an executive session. Committee meetings or deliberations are not deemed to automatically be in executive session by RONR.

Edited to add:  The same thing would apply if I were a member of the committee that was meeting and deliberating.  Once the meeting is over, I would be perfectly free to go to lunch with a friend or another member of the society and tell that person about everything we discussed in the committee meeting.

Edited March 14, 2024 at 04:25 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Josh Martin]

On 3/11/2024 at 11:14 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Well, not absolutely none.

In 51:65 we find:

[I]n debate on any written or oral report in the assembly, any member of the reporting committee who does not concur has the same right as any other member of the assembly to speak individually in opposition. No one can make allusion in the assembly to what has occurred during the deliberations of the committee, however, unless it is by report of the committee or by unanimous consent.

Yes, and it is correct that no one may make allusion in the assembly to what has occurred during the deliberations of the committee, unless it is by report of the committee or by unanimous consent. I don't think this is so much of a "confidentiality" issue. Rather, I believe it is more akin to the rule that debate is supposed to focus on the pending question. The matter before the assembly for consideration is the recommendations within the committee's report, not what happened during the committee meeting.

But the rule does not say that no one can make allusion at any time to what has occurred during the deliberations of the committee. As such, it seems to me that, outside of a meeting of the assembly, members are not restricted from discussing what occurred during the deliberations of the committee, unless the organization's rules so provide, or the committee meeting in question was held in executive session.

To the extent that the committee meeting was held in executive session, then the controlling rules are found in RONR (12th ed.) 9:26.

Edited March 14, 2024 at 12:44 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:42 AM, Josh Martin said:

Yes, and it is correct that no one may make allusion in the assembly to what has occurred during the deliberations of the committee, unless it is by report of the committee or by unanimous consent. I don't think this is so much of a "confidentiality" issue. Rather, I believe it is more akin to the rule that debate is supposed to focus on the pending question. The matter before the assembly for consideration is the recommendations within the committee's report, not what happened during the committee meeting.

But the rule does not say that no one can make allusion at any time to what has occurred during the deliberations of the committee. As such, it seems to me that, outside of a meeting of the assembly, members are not restricted from discussing what occurred during the deliberations of the committee, unless the organization's rules so provide, or the committee meeting in question was held in executive session.

To the extent that the committee meeting was held in executive session, then the controlling rules are found in RONR (12th ed.) 9:26.

Yes, I agree fully.  The requirement applies during debate on that report while it is pending in the assembly.  So I agree that saying that all committee deliberations are confidential would be overreach.  My point was that saying that non-exec. deliberations are never confidential in any way is also overreach.