Simple Majority Vote

[Guest LJames]

Our students currently have this in their constitution "The executive board shall take all action through simple majority vote" and "The quorum of an executive board meeting shall be established at three voting members and the student body president". In meeting where they had  3 voting members and president were present they voted on an item where the vote was 2 yays, 1 nay and 1 abstention. 

The president stated that the item passed because the abstentions do not count toward the vote. We are under the impression that with a simple majority, would need 3 yays to pass. We define simple majority as half plus 1. We understand that abstentions do not count, but we believe that still needs 3 yays in order for the item to pass. Is the president correct to say that the item passed with  2-1-1 vote?

Any advice and guidance is appreciated. Thank you!

[Joshua Katz]

On 4/23/2024 at 5:07 PM, Guest LJames said:

The president stated that the item passed because the abstentions do not count toward the vote. We are under the impression that with a simple majority, would need 3 yays to pass. We define simple majority as half plus 1. We understand that abstentions do not count, but we believe that still needs 3 yays in order for the item to pass. Is the president correct to say that the item passed with  2-1-1 vote?

 

You are under an incorrect impression. A majority vote means more voting yes than no. That is the case when the vote is 2-1. (Not 2-1-1; abstentions are not votes.) Also, the definition of majority is not half plus 1, it is just more than half.

I don't see anything in the facts as laid out that tells me why you think 3 votes are needed. What is 3 a majority of?

[Richard Brown]

I agree with Mr. Katz.  Unless you have some strange rule that we don't know about, and if RONR is your parliamentary authority, the motion received a majority vote and was adopted by a vote of 2 to 1.   The motion received a majority of the votes cast, which is the threshold.

Edited April 23, 2024 at 10:15 PM by Richard Brown
Added last sentence

[Atul Kapur]

On 4/23/2024 at 5:07 PM, Guest LJames said:

We define simple majority as half plus 1.

Does the constitution actually say that in those exact words? 

[Josh Martin]

On 4/23/2024 at 4:07 PM, Guest LJames said:

Our students currently have this in their constitution "The executive board shall take all action through simple majority vote" and "The quorum of an executive board meeting shall be established at three voting members and the student body president". In meeting where they had  3 voting members and president were present they voted on an item where the vote was 2 yays, 1 nay and 1 abstention. 

Based on the facts presented, the motion was adopted by a vote of 2-1.

On 4/23/2024 at 4:07 PM, Guest LJames said:

The president stated that the item passed because the abstentions do not count toward the vote. We are under the impression that with a simple majority, would need 3 yays to pass. We define simple majority as half plus 1. We understand that abstentions do not count, but we believe that still needs 3 yays in order for the item to pass. Is the president correct to say that the item passed with  2-1-1 vote?

The President's ruling was correct, and your understanding is wrong. A vote of 2-1 is a majority. Additionally, your definition of a majority as "half plus 1" is also wrong. A majority is simply "more than half."

"As stated in 1:6, the basic requirement for approval of an action or choice by a deliberative assembly, except where a rule provides otherwise, is a majority vote. The word majority means “more than half”; and when the term majority vote is used without qualification—as in the case of the basic requirement—it means more than half of the votes cast by persons entitled to vote, excluding blanks or abstentions, at a regular or properly called meeting." RONR (12th ed.) 44:1

This is how it's supposed to work, because as you say, "abstentions do not count." Creating rules under which an abstention would have the same effect as a no vote would defeat the point of abstentions.

"Voting requirements based on the number of members present—a majority of those present, two thirds of those present, etc.—while possible, are generally undesirable. Since an abstention in such cases has the same effect as a negative vote, these bases deny members the right to maintain a neutral position by abstaining. For the same reason, members present who fail to vote through indifference rather than through deliberate neutrality may affect the result negatively." RONR (12th ed.) 44:9

Edited April 24, 2024 at 01:05 AM by Josh Martin

[Guest LJames]

On 4/23/2024 at 5:10 PM, Joshua Katz said:

You are under an incorrect impression. A majority vote means more voting yes than no. That is the case when the vote is 2-1. (Not 2-1-1; abstentions are not votes.) Also, the definition of majority is not half plus 1, it is just more than half.

I don't see anything in the facts as laid out that tells me why you think 3 votes are needed. What is 3 a majority of?

There has been an understanding in our student group that “simple majority” is half plus one of whatever the number of voting members present is needed to pass, or enacted items brought to a vote. With this understanding, there is always a said number that needs met for an item to pass/enacted. Which is the case I presented above.

[Joshua Katz]

Okay, so the three comes from there being 4 members present. Thanks for clarifying. This is still a misunderstanding, though. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 4/23/2024 at 4:07 PM, Guest LJames said:

Our students currently have this in their constitution "The executive board shall take all action through simple majority vote" and "The quorum of an executive board meeting shall be established at three voting members and the student body president". In meeting where they had  3 voting members and president were present they voted on an item where the vote was 2 yays, 1 nay and 1 abstention. 

The president stated that the item passed because the abstentions do not count toward the vote. We are under the impression that with a simple majority, would need 3 yays to pass. We define simple majority as half plus 1. We understand that abstentions do not count, but we believe that still needs 3 yays in order for the item to pass. Is the president correct to say that the item passed with  2-1-1 vote?

Any advice and guidance is appreciated. Thank you!

The president would be correct to say that the item passed with a 2-1 vote.  Votes are either Yes or No.  There is no third category of vote.  Abstaining means not to vote.

[Guest LJames]

On 4/23/2024 at 8:49 PM, Atul Kapur said:

So, it seems we have been wrong with our understanding/definition. .The true definition is more than half. We probably should stop using the term “simple majority” and stick to the term “majority”, which is the true term.

On 4/24/2024 at 10:38 AM, Joshua Katz said:

Okay, so the three comes from there being 4 members present. Thanks for clarifying. This is still a misunderstanding, though. 

 

[Gary Novosielski]

Yes, the term "simple majority" appears nowhere in RONR.  Majority vote is the standard and well-known terminology.  It means more than half of those present and voting, and is met whenever the number of Yes votes is strictly greater than the number of No votes.

[Atul Kapur]

On 4/24/2024 at 4:25 PM, Guest LJames said:

There has been an understanding in our student group that “simple majority” is half plus one of whatever the number of voting members present is needed to pass,

So there's two issues here.

1) as mentioned, majority means "more than half." So a majority of 4 or 5 is 3. But...

2) unless your rules specifically say otherwise, it's a majority of votes cast, rather than the number present. So if one if the four abstain, then a majority of the three votes cast is 2.

Sometimes the language in an organization's bylaws sets things differently than the usual, which is why I asked earlier about the exact language in your bylaws.

[Drake Savory]

On 4/24/2024 at 8:25 AM, Guest LJames said:

There has been an understanding in our student group that “simple majority” is half plus one

I hear that a lot too.  It is still wrong.

[Josh Martin]

On 4/24/2024 at 9:25 AM, Guest LJames said:

There has been an understanding in our student group that “simple majority” is half plus one of whatever the number of voting members present is needed to pass, or enacted items brought to a vote. With this understanding, there is always a said number that needs met for an item to pass/enacted. Which is the case I presented above.

Well, your group's understanding is wrong. Specifically, it is wrong in both of the following ways.

• The term "majority" means "more than half," which is not quite the same thing as "half plus one."
  • For a simple illustration of this, suppose there are five members voting. Half of this is 2.5. So "half plus one," taken literally, would be 3.5, which would mean four votes would be required (as three votes wouldn't be enough). The correct definition of majority is "more than half." Under this definition, three votes is sufficient for a majority.
• The term "majority," when unqualified, means more than half of the number of members actually voting, not more than half of the members present.

The word "simple" adds nothing to the meaning here, and it would preferable to strike it.

RONR is explicit on this point. There is no ambiguity.

"As stated in 1:6, the basic requirement for approval of an action or choice by a deliberative assembly, except where a rule provides otherwise, is a majority vote. The word majority means “more than half”; and when the term majority vote is used without qualification—as in the case of the basic requirement—it means more than half of the votes cast by persons entitled to vote, excluding blanks or abstentions, at a regular or properly called meeting." RONR (12th ed.) 44:1

If your organization wishes to adopt rules providing that the requirement for adoption is "half plus one" of the number of voting members present (or perhaps more than half of the members present, as I think you may be using "half plus one" as an incorrect shorthand, and not using it intentionally), your organization is free to do so. Your rules as they are presently written, however, do not require this, notwithstanding your student group's erroneous understanding of the meaning of the word "majority."

Personally, for the reasons expressed previously, I believe such a rule would be extremely ill-advised, as the effect of such a rule would be that abstentions would have the same effect as "no" votes. This is problematic for members who wish to abstain for its intended purpose - to maintain a position of neutrality. Your organization, however, is still free to adopt such a rule if it wishes.

Edited April 25, 2024 at 07:27 PM by Josh Martin