Immediate Past Chair and the County Executive Board

[Wright Stuff]

Our county has been told by the state that no person can be a member of the County Executive Committee unless he or she was elected at the annual convention in an odd-numbered year or at an Executive Committee meeting. Here is the language from the county's bylaws that puts the IPP on the Board:

The County Officers and the Immediate Past Chair shall comprise the County Executive Board of the County Executive Committee.

The opinion from the state actually wiped out all ex officio positions in the county bylaws. The state's opinion overrides the county's bylaws. Ignoring whether it is a bad idea to have an IPP on the Executive Committee or on the Executive Board, how can the provision above be interpreted that the IPP is on the Board? The state's parliamentarian assured us that the IPP is on the Board even though he was not elected to it. There are no other provisions in the bylaws that say that a Board member does not have to be a member of the Executive Committee. 

How do you elect an IPP?

[Atul Kapur]

Assuming your officer terms are two years (as they are only elected in the odd-numbered years), one way to consider it is that you are actually electing an individual to a four-year term: two years as president and two as IPP.

It's similar to the situation if you elect a president-elect. That person is actually being elected to a double-length term, serving the first half as prez-elect and the second half as president.

On 4/24/2024 at 5:41 AM, Wright Stuff said:

The opinion from the state actually wiped out all ex officio positions in the county bylaws

I'm not certain that they did. Any positions that are elected at the odd-numbered annual conventions could still be on the board ex officio, couldnt they?

[Wright Stuff]

On 4/24/2024 at 5:34 AM, Atul Kapur said:

I'm not certain that they did. Any positions that are elected at the odd-numbered annual conventions could still be on the board ex officio, couldn't they?

That's a great question. My understanding is the ex officio means by virtue of their position. For example, some elected officials in county government are ex officio members of the Executive Committee. They never sit for an election at the county convention, and they (were previously) automatically members of the Executive Committee. They now must be elected at either the convention or an Executive Committee meeting. Since they have to elected at one or the other, are they still ex officio? If so, then I agree with your comment. 

Edited April 24, 2024 at 03:16 PM by Wright Stuff

[Joshua Katz]

On 4/24/2024 at 11:16 AM, Wright Stuff said:

Since they are elected, are they still ex officio?

Well, as an example, in many organizations the president is elected by the body, and by virtue of being president is on the board. So the president is an ex officio member of the board. In other instances, directors are elected, and then the board selects its president from among its members.

 

[Atul Kapur]

On 4/24/2024 at 5:16 PM, Wright Stuff said:

ex officio means by virtue of their position

Correct

On 4/24/2024 at 5:16 PM, Wright Stuff said:

some elected officials in county government are ex officio members of the Executive Committee. They never sit for an election at the county convention, and they (were previously) automatically members of the Executive Committee

They are not the type of positions I was thinking of. If you had elected, at the odd annual convention, delegates to the state executive committee for example, then they could be ex-officio members of the county committee.

On 4/24/2024 at 5:16 PM, Wright Stuff said:

They never sit for an election at the county convention, and they (were previously) automatically members of the Executive Committee. They now must be elected at either the convention or an Executive Committee meeting. Since they have to elected at one or the other, are they still ex officio?

No, it sounds like the people elected to government office are no longer ex officio members of the County Executive; they are no longer automatically members of the Executive by virtue of their government position.

[Josh Martin]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:41 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Our county has been told by the state that no person can be a member of the County Executive Committee unless he or she was elected at the annual convention in an odd-numbered year or at an Executive Committee meeting. Here is the language from the county's bylaws that puts the IPP on the Board:

The County Officers and the Immediate Past Chair shall comprise the County Executive Board of the County Executive Committee.

The opinion from the state actually wiped out all ex officio positions in the county bylaws. The state's opinion overrides the county's bylaws. Ignoring whether it is a bad idea to have an IPP on the Executive Committee or on the Executive Board, how can the provision above be interpreted that the IPP is on the Board? The state's parliamentarian assured us that the IPP is on the Board even though he was not elected to it. There are no other provisions in the bylaws that say that a Board member does not have to be a member of the Executive Committee. 

How do you elect an IPP?

Well, you don't elect an IPP, at least not directly.

But a person becomes IPP by virtue of the fact that they used to be the President, and the IPP would have been elected to that office. So I don't know that the existence of the IPP on your board is in conflict with the advice you received from the state "that no person can be a member of the County Executive Committee unless he or she was elected at the annual convention in an odd-numbered year or at an Executive Committee meeting." The IPP was elected "at the annual convention in an odd-numbered year or at an Executive Committee meeting." They were just elected some time ago, and were elected to the position of President, and now serves by virtue of the position to which they had previously been elected.

So I actually think the opinion provided by your state's parliamentarian makes sense to me, and in any event, the state's parliamentarian is probably the person best suited to interpret the opinion provided by the state.

I would advise your organization nonetheless jettison the IPP as soon as possible, because it is a bad idea to have the IPP on the Executive Committee or the Executive Board. But unfortunately, I don't think the state has booted your IPP off the board.

On 4/24/2024 at 10:16 AM, Wright Stuff said:

My understanding is the ex officio means by virtue of their position. 

Yes, that is a correct understanding.

On 4/24/2024 at 10:16 AM, Wright Stuff said:

For example, some elected officials in county government are ex officio members of the Executive Committee. They never sit for an election at the county convention, and they (were previously) automatically members of the Executive Committee. They now must be elected at either the convention or an Executive Committee meeting. Since they have to elected at one or the other, are they still ex officio? If so, then I agree with your comment. 

I am in agreement that these positions can no longer automatically serve on your Executive Committee, under the opinion provided to you by the state.

But suppose, for example, you had other positions which are not elected directly to the board, but are still elected by the convention or by the Executive Committee. Suppose, for example, certain committees are elected at the convention, and your bylaws provide that members of those committees serve ex officio on the Executive Committee. I don't see anything wrong with that.

For that matter, if your convention directly elects named officers (Chair, Vice Chair, Treasurer, Secretary) and those officers automatically serve on the board, those persons are in effect ex officio members of the board, although people often don't think of them that way.

So I don't think it's correct to say that the state's opinion removed ex officio members altogether. It is correct, however, that ex officio members who are not elected at the convention or an Executive Committee meeting are removed.

[Wright Stuff]

On 4/25/2024 at 4:19 PM, Josh Martin said:

They were just elected some time ago, and were elected to the position of President, and now serves by virtue of the position to which they had previously been elected.

Yes, she was elected chair. She was never elected past chair. I understand your logic, but I don't think it holds up since all positions have terms. In any case, since I made this post, I contacted the parliamentarian. The officer who told me that the IPP was still on the board is the one who told me what the parliamentarian said. His response to me was, "The officer is a delightful person, but in this case, she is wrong." So, the person who told me lied. Something is wrong in Denmark, as the saying goes. 

[Josh Martin]

On 4/25/2024 at 11:09 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Yes, she was elected chair. She was never elected past chair. I understand your logic, but I don't think it holds up since all positions have terms. In any case, since I made this post, I contacted the parliamentarian. The officer who told me that the IPP was still on the board is the one who told me what the parliamentarian said. His response to me was, "The officer is a delightful person, but in this case, she is wrong." So, the person who told me lied. Something is wrong in Denmark, as the saying goes. 

Well, as I have said, the state parliamentarian is quite likely in the best position to understand the advice the state has given you on this matter, so if they are now telling you that the IPP is not on the board, I suppose that's that. Which is probably just as well. 

I do think, however, that in any event this thread raises an interesting question, and it may well behoove the state to issue further guidance clarifying its earlier opinion, as I have to imagine your county party is not the only county party to have this question (or other questions) about the advice the state has provided in this matter.

Edited April 26, 2024 at 01:19 PM by Josh Martin

[Wright Stuff]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:18 AM, Josh Martin said:

I have to imagine your county party is not the only county party to have this question (or other questions) about the advice the state has provided in this matter.

Our county is not the only one. There are problems throughout the state. The damage is done. I'm not sure how they're going to fix it. Maybe they're not going to be able to fix it. 

[Rob Elsman]

I sort of sense that there might be some legal issues here. The assistance of an attorney might be helpful.

[Richard Brown]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:41 PM, Wright Stuff said:

The state's parliamentarian assured us that the IPP is on the Board even though he was not elected to it.

 

On 4/23/2024 at 10:41 PM, Wright Stuff said:

How do you elect an IPP?

You don’t. The immediate past president becomes immediate past president by virtue of being the last person to have served as president regardless of why he or she is no longer president. 

[Wright Stuff]

On 4/28/2024 at 11:09 AM, Richard Brown said:

You don’t. The immediate past president becomes immediate past president by virtue of being the last person to have served as president regardless of why he or she is no longer president. 

Exactly, and because of the very poor wording of our bylaws, she is no longer on the Executive Committee since she was not elected to the Executive Committee at a convention in an odd-numbered year or at an Executive Committee meeting. If she's not on the Executive Committee, I don't see a path to be "elected" IPP. Yes, she was previously elected president, but she has never been elected IPP. It's a really stupid problem. I guess the Executive Committee could move to elect the IPP to the Executive Board, but it hasn't happened. Changing the bylaws is not an option at the moment.

[Atul Kapur]

On 4/28/2024 at 7:47 PM, Wright Stuff said:

she was not elected to the Executive Committee at a convention in an odd-numbered year

Yes, she was: The year she was elected president.

You seem to be assuming that she has to be elected as IPP in an odd-year convention. It's not a position one is elected to, it's a position one ascends to. But that does not invalidate the fact that she was elected at an odd-year convention to the office of president.

I don't believe that you have shared the exact wording of the State bylaws that you say create this confusion ( in fact, you describe it as am opinion); they may specifically say different and it may help clarify the situation if you do share the exact language you received. 

Edited April 28, 2024 at 08:38 PM by Atul Kapur

[Richard Brown]

@Wright Stuff I agree with Dr. Kapur’s analysis and also ask that you provide the exact wording of the bylaw language which purportedly requires that the IPP be elected to the executive committee at a convention in an odd number year.