Convention Rules Have Continuing Effect

[Wright Stuff]

I’d like to have “the final answer” and the cite to it, if there is one. The rules passed yesterday for an annual convention include this last line:

DURATION OF RULES

“The fundamental Rules herein shall govern until new Rules are adopted at a subsequent Convention.”

I’ve understood from here and elsewhere that one convention does not have the authority to tie the hands of another convention. There is no information in the bylaws concerning the duration of the rules. 

I hate giving people who are trying to understand RONR wrong answers. This provision was read as being authoritative at yesterdays session. He had previously (a year ago) told me personally that the provision is out of order. 

I really don’t care what the answer is but I do want the right one so I can stop embarrassing myself. And what’s a “fundamental” rule?

[Atul Kapur]

While 

Quote

59:28 The standing rules of successive conventions held by a society often become developed to a point where little change in the rules adopted by the preceding convention is necessary.

RONR is clear that 

Quote

“The Standing Rules of the Convention,” . . . as adopted, will apply to that one convention only. 

and that

Quote

their effect expires at the close of the session that adopts them

59:27

[Rob Elsman]

I was going to ask you what is a fundamental rule.  Normally, I think of one as being in the nature of a bylaw or provision in some higher-level governing document, such as a governmental ordinance or statute.  I cannot tell exactly what is such a rule in the context of this topic.  What did the convention adopt and call a fundamental rule?  You've got me.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/25/2024 at 7:49 AM, Wright Stuff said:

I’d like to have “the final answer” and the cite to it, if there is one. The rules passed yesterday for an annual convention include this last line:

DURATION OF RULES

“The fundamental Rules herein shall govern until new Rules are adopted at a subsequent Convention.”

I’ve understood from here and elsewhere that one convention does not have the authority to tie the hands of another convention. There is no information in the bylaws concerning the duration of the rules. 

I hate giving people who are trying to understand RONR wrong answers. This provision was read as being authoritative at yesterdays session. He had previously (a year ago) told me personally that the provision is out of order. 

I really don’t care what the answer is but I do want the right one so I can stop embarrassing myself. And what’s a “fundamental” rule?

Since the rules of a convention apply only to that convention, the rule quoted above will also cease to exist once the convention is over.

Nothing prevents a convention from adopting the same set of rules as the one that preceded it, but those rules to not apply in the interval between them.  This is not a major issue, since even if they did apply, there is no body in existence during that interval to which they would apply.  So the only time at issue is the brief period at the start of a convention before it adopts the report of its own Rules Committee.  To the extent that it makes a difference, the rules of the previous convention do not apply during that period.

 

[Josh Martin]

On 5/25/2024 at 7:49 AM, Wright Stuff said:

I’d like to have “the final answer” and the cite to it, if there is one. The rules passed yesterday for an annual convention include this last line:

DURATION OF RULES

“The fundamental Rules herein shall govern until new Rules are adopted at a subsequent Convention.”

I’ve understood from here and elsewhere that one convention does not have the authority to tie the hands of another convention. There is no information in the bylaws concerning the duration of the rules. 

I hate giving people who are trying to understand RONR wrong answers. This provision was read as being authoritative at yesterdays session. He had previously (a year ago) told me personally that the provision is out of order. 

I really don’t care what the answer is but I do want the right one so I can stop embarrassing myself. And what’s a “fundamental” rule?

I think you have it right. Convention standing rules expire at the end of a convention.

If your organization wants continuing rules, which it is free to do, you need to either:

1.) Adopt them as bylaws or special rules of order.

2.) Provide in the bylaws or special rules of order that the convention standing rules have continuing effect.

Putting this statement in the convention standing rules doesn't cut it.

[Wright Stuff]

On 5/25/2024 at 7:15 PM, Josh Martin said:

Provide in the bylaws or special rules of order

I still don't understand Special Rules of Order in the context of a political party. The rules of a convention, I assume, are standing rules. What are Special Rules of Order?

[Dan Honemann]

On 5/27/2024 at 12:53 AM, Wright Stuff said:

I still don't understand Special Rules of Order in the context of a political party. The rules of a convention, I assume, are standing rules. What are Special Rules of Order?

I don't think there is any such thing as a special rule of order that would be applicable during a meeting of a convention of delegates.

[Wright Stuff]

On 5/27/2024 at 1:16 PM, Dan Honemann said:

I don't think there is any such thing as a special rule of order that would be applicable during a meeting of a convention of delegates.

Thank you for the clarification!!!

[Josh Martin]

On 5/26/2024 at 11:53 PM, Wright Stuff said:

I still don't understand Special Rules of Order in the context of a political party. The rules of a convention, I assume, are standing rules. What are Special Rules of Order?

A special rule of order is a rule which relates to parliamentary procedure that has continuing force and effect beyond the current meeting.

The rules of a single convention, which are described as "convention standing rules," generally contain both rules of order and standing rules. A standing rule does not relate to parliamentary procedure.

On 5/27/2024 at 12:16 PM, Dan Honemann said:

I don't think there is any such thing as a special rule of order that would be applicable during a meeting of a convention of delegates.

Hang on a second. While I grant that it is unusual for an organization which holds conventions to adopt special rules of order, as ordinarily this is handled by the convention adopting convention standing rules, are you saying that an organization cannot adopt special rules of order binding future conventions? So if the organization wishes to have rules governing conventions which bind more than a single convention, only a bylaw amendment would be sufficient?

[Richard Brown]

I concur with Mr. Martin’s comments and questions immediately above. I see nothing to prohibit a political party or any other type organization from adopting some sort of permanent convention special rules of order that shall be effective and binding from convention to convention until amended. I know of several national and state political parties that have adopted such rules. They won’t consistency from convention to convention and they want a standard order of business to be effective from convention to convention. Why would a political party be any different from any other organization in this regard? 

Edited May 28, 2024 at 01:07 PM by Richard Brown

[Josh Martin]

On 5/28/2024 at 8:03 AM, Richard Brown said:

I concur with Mr. Martin’s comments and questions immediately above. I see nothing to prohibit a political party or any other type organization from adopting some sort of permanent convention special rules of order that shall be effective and binding from convention to convention until amended. I know of several national, state, and local political parties that have adopted such rules. They won’t consistency from convention to convention and they want a standard order of business to be effective from convention to convention. Why would a political party be any different from any other organization in this regard? 

Well, let's make sure we are characterizing Mr. Honemann's comments correctly. He didn't say anything about political parties - the comment was written with regard to conventions of delegates generally.

So I think what you mean to ask is why would organizations which hold conventions of delegates be different from other organizations in this regard.

Edited May 28, 2024 at 01:06 PM by Josh Martin

[Richard Brown]

On 5/28/2024 at 8:06 AM, Josh Martin said:

Well, let's make sure we are characterizing Mr. Honemann's comments correctly. He didn't say anything about political parties - the comment was written with regard to conventions of delegates generally.

So I think what you mean to ask is why would organizations which hold conventions of delegates be different from other organizations in this regard.

Yes, you are correct. it was the original poster, @Wright Stuff, who referred to political parties. Mr. Honemann‘s comment about conventions in general was in response to that question.

The political parties I am referring to put great importance on knowing that the order of business, special rules of order, and other rules are going to be the same from one convention to the next.

Edited May 28, 2024 at 01:17 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Richard Brown]

In the case of at least one political party which I am familiar with, the bylaws themselves make reference to the party adopting “convention special rules of order”.  I would think such a provision is certainly sufficient for authorizing a convention to adopt permanent convention special rules of order to apply from convention to convention, and can even provide for one set of procedures for, say, a presidential or statewide election year and a different set of procedures for other conventions between election years

[Dan Honemann]

I think that a very careful reading of what is said throughout 59:27-47 leads one to the conclusion that, at least as far as the rules in RONR are concerned, there is no such thing as a special rule of order having applicability during meetings of a convention of delegates.  It is particularly telling to note that Rule 9 in the sample set of convention standing rules which prescribes the parliamentary authority (59:47)  makes no reference to special rules of order.

Obviously, the bylaws of any organization will supersede the rules in RONR to the extent that there is any conflict.

[Shmuel Gerber]

@Dan Honemann I don't know if I have a written record of it, but my recollection is that, many years ago, you opined in the forum that there is nothing in RONR that would prevent an organization from adopting special rules of order (of a permanent nature that do not expire at the end of a session) to apply to its conventions. 

[Dan Honemann]

On 5/28/2024 at 1:27 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

@Dan Honemann I don't know if I have a written record of it, but my recollection is that, many years ago, you opined in the forum that there is nothing in RONR that would prevent an organization from adopting special rules of order (of a permanent nature that do not expire at the end of a session) to apply to its conventions. 

If I did it must have been back when I was just a mere lad, still wet behind the ears.

There is nothing in RONR specifically saying that an organization cannot adopt special rules of order applicable to its conventions.  In my opinion, it is a conclusion necessarily arrived at after reading all that RONR says about rules of order in a convention of delegates.