DawnLundin Posted March 13, 2015 at 05:29 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 05:29 PM Hi! I'm sure this is going to be an easy one. Then again... Our ByLaws State the following -Article I. MembershipSection 2. Dues. Membership dues shall not exceed $25.00 per person per year. The amount of yearly dues shall be determined by the Board of Directors and confirmed by vote of the members no later than the regular meeting date in March. During the Month of March, the Treasurer shall notify members of their dues for the ensuing year. Dues are due and payable on or before June 30th each year. No member may vote whose dues are not paid for the current year. Article II. Meeting and VotingSection 1. Club Meetings. Meetings of the Club shall be held within the xxxxxx area on the second Thursday of each month, at such hour and place as may be designated by the Board of Directors. Notice of such meeting shall be furnished at least 10 days prior to the date of the meeting. The quorum for such a meeting shall be 20 percent of the members in good standing. Section 5. Voting. Each member in good standing whose dues are paid for the current year shall be entitled to one vote at any meeting of the Club at which he/she is present. Proxy voting will not be permitted at any Club meeting or election. Article VII. AmendmentsSection 2. The constitution and bylaws may be amended by a 2/3 secret vote of the members present and voting at any regular or special meeting called for the purpose, provided the proposed amendments have been included in the notice of the meeting and made available to each member at least two weeks prior to the date of the meeting. Question:A notice went out to the general membership [not sure if it was a whole two weeks prior] indicating the Board wasrecommending a raise in membership dues and that it would be voted on by the general membership at the next meeting. [Dues will not exceed $25] Club members in good standing = 74 [at the time of the meeting, or so we were told]Vote "by show of hands"Results were 8 FOR - 7 AGAINST Questions:1. I asked if we had a quorum, I was told we didn't need one. 2. Was the vote "valid"? 3. The members assume the dues have increased, have they?4. How should this be handled? I appreciate any comments. Dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted March 13, 2015 at 05:54 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 05:54 PM Club members in good standing = 74 [at the time of the meeting, or so we were told]Vote "by show of hands"Results were 8 FOR - 7 AGAINST Questions:1. I asked if we had a quorum, I was told we didn't need one. 2. Was the vote "valid"? 3. The members assume the dues have increased, have they?4. How should this be handled? I appreciate any comments. Dawn1. Yes, you needed a quorum and you had a quorum, based upon your statement that there are 74 members in good standing and that a quorum is 20 percent of the members in good standing. You needed 15 members present and you had 15 members. 2. Yes, the vote was valid per RONR and my understanding of the bylaw provisions you quoted. The motion carried by a majority vote of 8 to 7. 3. Yes, I believe so, based on the information you provided, and assuming the current dues are within the upper limit in the bylaws. 4. How should what be handled? It looks to me like the society voted to increase the dues and that the motion carried. The new dies amount is in effect. Edited to add: This all assumes that proper notice was sent to the members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted March 13, 2015 at 06:09 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 06:09 PM Dawn,Why do you think that two weeks' notice is required for a motion to set the dues? The bylaws you quoted state that notice "shall be furnished at least 10 days prior to the date of the meeting." The two-week requirement seems to be only for bylaws amendments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Lages Posted March 13, 2015 at 06:54 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 06:54 PM Just out of curiosity, when does your club's year start? Is it the usual calendar year of Jan-Dec, or some other definition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnLundin Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:39 PM Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:39 PM Thank you for your comments. The club's fiscal year is June 1st to May 31st. The comment I made about the 2 week timeframe relates to our Article VII. Amendments. However, I realize that there was no amendment to the ByLaws being votedupon. But, that was part of an issue someone had and I wanted to be sure it was covered. We deal with lousy record keeping and "creative interpretation" of club rules all the time.Let me add this. The sign-in sheet had 15 names on it. We know there was a person present who had not officiallybecome a member yet, and her vote (so as not to embarass her) was not actually counted. In addition, anothermember is a "lifer" and does not have to pay dues, so she announced she was not going to vote.Two people counted the votes and the result was what I indicated. Something ain't right, but whatcha gonna do? Now, let me throw this out.When I insisted that the Secretary provide an accurate account of our memberswe find out that we actually had 80 members in good standing at the time of that meeting. Sigh....Now what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielEHayes Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:43 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:43 PM As Mr Gerber stated, I do not see any notice requirement for the vote to confirm the dues being raised/set by the membership. Now if they were going to raise the dues to $35 then THAT would require 2 weeks notice because that would require a bylaw change(by secret vote/ballot) as it exceeded the amount currently allowed for the maximum dues.That was not the case, they just had he general membership vote to affirm the current set rate for the dues that fall within the parameters established in the bylaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielEHayes Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:51 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:51 PM Thank you for your comments. Sigh....Now what?What was the actual difference in the dues from last year and this year? I think you may have a continuing breech and that means you can raise a point of order. Have people already paid their dues? Is it going to be worth it? Do you think it was done intentionally or is this just chalked up to the bad record keeping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:53 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:53 PM Let me add this. The sign-in sheet had 15 names on it. We know there was a person present who had not officiallybecome a member yet, and her vote (so as not to embarass her) was not actually counted. In addition, anothermember is a "lifer" and does not have to pay dues, so she announced she was not going to vote.Two people counted the votes and the result was what I indicated. Something ain't right, but whatcha gonna do? Now, let me throw this out.When I insisted that the Secretary provide an accurate account of our memberswe find out that we actually had 80 members in good standing at the time of that meeting. Sigh....Now what? Well, it's getting a little confusing now. Was the "non-member" included in the 15 names on the sign in sheet? What about the life member? Regardless of whether she actually voted, is she entitled to vote? Is she included in the 15 names on the sign in sheet? If you actually had 80 members in good standing, a quorum would be 16. If you had fifteen bona fide actual members to vote, that means at least those 15 were present unless they have some sort of special powers. If the life member did not sign in but was entitled to vote, then she would make 16 members present..... and a quorum. Note: A quorum is presumed to be present and to continue to be present until challenged. If the presence of a quorum is challenged after the fact, rather than with a timely objection, then the burden of proof is on those who claim the lack of a quorum to prove to the satisfaction of the membership that a quorum was not present. If there is no way to know for sure, then the vote result stands. (See edit note below) Edited to add: The problem you describe is a problem with "sign in sheets". They are not always accurate. What matters is the number of actual, voting members in good standing who were present, regardless of whether they signed in and regardless of whether they voted. Edited again to add: This is what RONR says on page 349 about proving the absence of a quorum in order to affect action previously taken by the assembly" "Because of the difficulty likely to be encountered in determining exactly how long the meeting has been without a quorum in such cases, a point of order relating to the absence of a quorum is generally not permitted to affect prior action; but upon clear and convincing proof, such a point of order can be given effect retrospectively by a ruling of the presiding officer, subject to appeal (24).*" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:10 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:10 PM What was the actual difference in the dues from last year and this year? As long as it remains under the $25 limit, why would that matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:12 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:12 PM When I insisted that the Secretary provide an accurate account of our memberswe find out that we actually had 80 members in good standing at the time of that meeting. So you'd need 16 members present at the time the vote was taken, whether they voted or not and whether they signed in or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielEHayes Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:22 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:22 PM As long as it remains under the $25 limit, why would that matter?That is sort of the point I am making...if its a buck? So what? is it worth the headaches?But getting into other matters, did the life member sign the sheet or not? Is this all worth it? If they didnt have a quorum couldn't they just ratify the whole thing next time they have a quorum? Or just leave things at the current dues rate and if the club is short of money ask people to voluntarily pay the difference? The things people argue over... ahm just sayin.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnLundin Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:26 PM Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:26 PM The dues had been $15 for at least the last 20 years. The vote was to change the dues to $25. That, as y'all indicated does indeed NOTrequire 2 weeks notice because there is no amendment being made. I understand, but others insisted different....I won't go there. So,we are all good on that matter. I asked to see the sign-in sheet and I haven't yet, so I'm not sure if the "not yet a member" was on there. The life member did sign in, but did not vote.How it came out to 8 and 7 is a mystery, and I agree, someone must have super powers. There was such a heated discussion and it sounded likethe majority did not want the dues raised people felt like they had the rug pulled out from under them. I was pretty irritated that when I asked if there was a quorum I was told [okay, it was the President of the Club that said it] that we didn't need to have a quorum.I would have pressed the issue if I knew how many members we had. The President seems to be under the assumption that we don't need aquorum at any of our meetings even though we are supposed to be following RONR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:31 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:31 PM The President seems to be under the assumption that we don't need a quorum at any of our meetings even though we are supposed to be following RONR. Sounds like it might be time for a new president. See FAQ #20. You might also want to amend the bylaws to change the quorum requirement to a fixed number. Just make sure you review it periodically (e.g. annually) in case the size of the membership changes substantially (especially if it drops). We've had too many people come here and ask what can be done when the total membership is less than the quorum requirement. They don't get the answer they're hoping for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnLundin Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:33 PM Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:33 PM That is sort of the point I am making...if its a buck? So what? is it worth the headaches?But getting into other matters, did the life member sign the sheet or not? Is this all worth it? If they didnt have a quorum couldn't they just ratify the whole thing next time they have a quorum? Or just leave things at the current dues rate and if the club is short of money ask people to voluntarily pay the difference? The things people argue over... ahm just sayin.. I hear you loud and clear. We aren't short by any means but when some families have more than one member and they have to come upwith it, as little as it sounds, it can be quite difficult. Why after 20+ years? Ya got me!I'd like to appease everyone with legitimate answers, just because I want everyone to get along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnLundin Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:37 PM Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:37 PM Sounds like it might be time for a new president. See FAQ #20. You might also want to amend the bylaws to change the quorum requirement to a fixed number. Just make sure you review it periodically (e.g. annually) in case the size of the membership changes substantially (especially if it drops). We have too many people come here and ask what can be done when the total membership is less than the quorum requirement. Unfortunately, no one else wants the job. As far as the quorum requirement...we ALWAYS had a healthy quorum when refreshments were served. The economyforced us to do away with that. Hmmmmmm....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:40 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:40 PM Unfortunately, no one else wants the job. Not even you? Why not? Or, more to the point, what is it about being president of your organization that is scaring everyone else away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:41 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:41 PM I'd like to appease everyone with legitimate answers, just because I want everyone to get along. It's usually better to face up to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnLundin Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:46 PM Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:46 PM Not even you? Why not? Or, more to the point, what is it about being president of your organization that is scaring everyone else away? Oh I've done everything but. I'm happy to do the newsletter and website all by myself.You know how it goes, everyone criticizes how you do the job, but no one wants to step up and do it themselves. That grates on a person after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnLundin Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:50 PM Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 08:50 PM It's usually better to face up to reality. I am forever getting myself into situations trying to fix stupid and I darn well know that it ain't gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielEHayes Posted March 13, 2015 at 11:34 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 11:34 PM well if the dues are increased you can serve refereshments...just saying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted March 13, 2015 at 11:55 PM Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 at 11:55 PM Thank you for your comments. The club's fiscal year is June 1st to May 31st. The comment I made about the 2 week timeframe relates to our Article VII. Amendments. However, I realize that there was no amendment to the ByLaws being votedupon. But, that was part of an issue someone had and I wanted to be sure it was covered. We deal with lousy record keeping and "creative interpretation" of club rules all the time.Let me add this. The sign-in sheet had 15 names on it. We know there was a person present who had not officiallybecome a member yet, and her vote (so as not to embarass her) was not actually counted. In addition, anothermember is a "lifer" and does not have to pay dues, so she announced she was not going to vote.Two people counted the votes and the result was what I indicated. Something ain't right, but whatcha gonna do? Now, let me throw this out.When I insisted that the Secretary provide an accurate account of our memberswe find out that we actually had 80 members in good standing at the time of that meeting. Sigh....Now what? If it can be proven that a quorum was not present, or that a vote was cast (and counted) by someone who was not eligible to vote, or that there was some other impropriety in the ballots which would have affected the result (such as someone voting twice) the vote is null and void. Personally, I do not think that the sign-in sheet, in and of itself, is sufficient proof of any of these things. It is entirely possible that there were members present who did not sign in, which could explain all of these irregularities. If a member raises a Point of Order that the vote is null and void for one or more of these reasons, the chair will rule on the point, and a member can then Appeal from the decision of the chair. If this motion is seconded, the decision is then in the hands of the assembly. A majority vote is required to overturn the chair's ruling. Considering the difficulty and delicacy of challenging the validity of the vote, another path to consider would be to simply accept the vote as valid and instead work to elect new board members who would be willing to reduce the dues to their previous amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 14, 2015 at 12:06 AM Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 at 12:06 AM It is entirely possible that there were members present who did not sign in, which could explain all of these irregularities. And it's entirely possible that there were members who signed in and left before the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielEHayes Posted March 14, 2015 at 07:32 AM Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 at 07:32 AM And it's entirely possible that there were members who signed in and left before the vote.And then there are always those people that slip in and don't sign, right before going out for a night of dumping tea in the Boston Harbor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnLundin Posted March 17, 2015 at 07:03 PM Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 at 07:03 PM If it can be proven that a quorum was not present, or that a vote was cast (and counted) by someone who was not eligible to vote, or that there was some other impropriety in the ballots which would have affected the result (such as someone voting twice) the vote is null and void. Personally, I do not think that the sign-in sheet, in and of itself, is sufficient proof of any of these things. It is entirely possible that there were members present who did not sign in, which could explain all of these irregularities. If a member raises a Point of Order that the vote is null and void for one or more of these reasons, the chair will rule on the point, and a member can then Appeal from the decision of the chair. If this motion is seconded, the decision is then in the hands of the assembly. A majority vote is required to overturn the chair's ruling. Considering the difficulty and delicacy of challenging the validity of the vote, another path to consider would be to simply accept the vote as valid and instead work to elect new board members who would be willing to reduce the dues to their previous amount. I didn't mean to cut out so abruptly on Friday, but well, it was Friday and I wanted to get on the road to sit in traffic for 2 hours trying to get home.I do appreciate everyone's comments here. I feel I have the answers I need to bring back to the club. Our annual meeting is coming up in June so I'm sure I'll beback to clarify some other issue. Happy St. Patrick's Day to everyone who celebrates Dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 17, 2015 at 07:16 PM Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 at 07:16 PM Happy St. Patrick's Day to everyone who celebrates You mean there are people who don't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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