Richard Brown

I agree with Mr. Harrison. I see nothing in the bylaw quotes provided that requires that notice of bylaw amendments be mailed to the members at the time that the call (notice) of the meeting is mailed, even though that is customary in many (or even most) organizations. These bylaws simply require that prior notice be given. All things considered, since one week's notice of the biannual meeting is all that is required and no specific date for mailing notice of proposed bylaw amendments is specified, I believe that mailing notice of proposed bylaw amendments at least one week prior to the meeting would suffice.

I'm wondering what he is talking about, too. I have not even commented in this thread until this post. I also agree with Mr. Katz that if someone doesn't like the language in RONR that each new edition automatically supersedes all previous editions and becomes the parliamentary authority of an organization unless a specific edition is specified, it is easy enough to "fix": Just have the bylaws of all of your organizations specify a particular edition as suggested in RONR. Done. Fixed. If you are afraid that language won't be strong enough, then add the words "and only that edition" when you specify the particular edition that you want to be the parliamentary authority.

I deleted this post because of problems with trying to edit it and replaced it with the post below.

Guest Sara, the unhappy member does have a parliamentary maneuver at his disposal: As long as all or part of the motion he objects to has not yet been carried out, the objectionable member is free to introduce a motion to amend or repeal the previously adopted motion at the next meeting... or even at each future meeting.... until the provisions of the motion he wants repealed have been fully executed and amending or repealing it has become moot.

Guest Sarah, while I understand your consternation, I agree with the response by Mr. Katz. Nothing in RONR requires that, once a motion is adopted, all members quietly acquiesce and forever go along with with whatever the decision was that they disagree with. While no member should actively attempt to undermine or thwart the will of the assembly, nothing prohibits those members who disagree with the decision from engaging in old fashioned lobbying to try to get it changed. If their lobbying becomes such a nuisance that it is creating disharmony or interfering with the objects of the society, they can be disciplined for it... even expelled. Perhaps it's a fine line, but members are free to lobby other members on issues affecting the society, even to attempt to change their minds on existing policies. For what it's worth, here is (I believe) the complete quote that Mr. Katz referred to from General Henry Robert on the issue. It is on page xlix in the introduction to the 11th edition of RONR and comes from a statement by General Robert in his book Parliamentary Law which he published in 1923: "In an often quoted statement, the original author said: "The great lesson for democracies to learn is for the majority to give to the minority a full, free opportunity to present their side of the case, and then for the minority, having failed to win a majority to their views, gracefully to submit and to recognize the action as that of the entire organization, and cheerfully to assist in carrying it out, until they can secure its repeal." (Emphasis added) Pay particular attention to the last few words: ". . . until they can secure its repeal". It looks to me like this is what your "objector" is doing. If it becomes obnoxious or disruptive, the society can always consider disciplinary action. Such action can range from a simple reprimand or censure to expulsion. A polite request from the president or a trusted friend to "please just drop it for now" might well suffice.

No, it's not correct. The motion should have been discussed /debated If there was anyone who was anyone who wanted to. It is a debatable motion. It also should have been subject to requests for information. Edited to add: there also should have been a vote on the motion unless it was adopted by unanimous consent.

No, I'm sorry but we do not have that information and it is outside the scope of this forum

I'm afraid there is nothing in RONR about a "dress code" of any sort.

I suspect that the second statement is either custom or based on a ruling that write in votes are permitted in subsequent ballots as well as on the first ballot. I don't know that that necessarily creates a conflict, it may just be this organization's interpretation of a rather strange and strangely worded rule.

Actually, per the footnote on page 441, the rules may be suspended to drop from the ballot the candidate(s) with the fewest number of votes, although the candidate is merely dropped from the ballot and still remains eligible to be elected by means of write-in votes. The same thing can be done by means of the adoption of a special rule of order. Only a rule in the bylaws, however, can make such a "dropped" candidate ineligible for election. Nominations may re re-opened by a majority vote.

As others have pointed out, including the original poster, it seems clear that this is the state central committee of a political organization and is almost certainly in the nature of a board of directors, rather than a "committee" in the usual sense of the word.

Is it board members or general members who are missing these meetings? Do you even have a membership as such, or only a board? Not off the top of my head, but stay tuned and keep checking back. Someone may post some sample language. It's not that unusual a provision. There is no such language in the sample bylaws in RONR. If you do add such a provision, I urge you to proceed slowly and cautiously and to have several people critically review the proposed language. Hastily adopted language too often leads to interpretation issues and unintended consequences. Don't rush into it!

I'm not so sure, based on the latest post by Guest Susie: Based on Guest Susie's posts, it seems that there can indeed be some latitude in the start time of meetings, provided certain specified criteria are complied with.

The system is not letting me edit my response above, so I am posting my "edit" as a new post here: Edited to add: by "new members", are you referring to new board members or new members of the organization? Once a person becomes a member of the board, that person is entitled to all information which is available to other board members, including prior executive sessions. Such new members are not limited to information about executive sessions occurring only after they become members. They are entitled to see and be informed of prior executive session actions, as well. As long as they are on the board, they can see all of the board records, secret or otherwise, that they want to see. Once they are no longer board members, they no longer have this right of access... not even to minutes of meetings that took place while they were members.

By "in-camera meeting" I assume you mean what RONR (and those of us who post regularly on this forum) refer to as an "executive session". Your board is free to disclose whatever information it chooses to disclose about what transpires in an executive session, but the decision to do so should be documented in the minutes in order to avoid someone later being accused of violating the secrecy of the executive session. Your discussion with the new members may be in executive session or not, as the board deems appropriate. Note that all persons who attend an executive session are bound by the secrecy of the executive session unless that secrecy is lifted by the board itself. In the case of approving new members, the new members will almost certainly be made known to the general membership at some point, right? Or is their membership in the organization going to forever remain secret? 🙂

Mr. Baxter, I think that every one of us, in one way or another, has asked that you post the language from the bylaws regarding write in candidates. I specifically asked you, several posts up, to post the exact language from the bylaws regarding write in candidates. To date, you have not done so. In my opinion that is critical information which we need in order to properly respond to your question. Without that information, we are really just speculating as to whether and to what extent write in candidates are permitted and whether they are permitted in subsequent ballots.

I agree with this and had actually intended to suggest it in my answer. It may be the best way to avoid a possible awkward situation. For the parliamentarian to remain silent during debate on the recommendations might take a bit more self-control unless the rules are suspended to permit him to speak in debate. I think he might also be expected to respond to questions (requests for information) on the proposed changes. (Note: I'm not suggesting that the rules be suspended....but merely pointing out that option).

No, they should not. See the following language on page 414 of RONR: " Balloting Procedure. In balloting in a meeting where the voting is in the same room as the meeting, the chair appoints tellers to distribute, collect, and count the ballots, and to report the vote. The number of tellers is dependent on the number of voters, and the number of offices to be filled or questions to be answered, or the number of candidates. For a small group, two or three tellers are usually sufficient. The tellers should be chosen for accuracy and dependability, should have the confidence of the membership, and should not have a direct personal involvement in the question or in the result of the vote to an extent that they should refrain from voting under the principle stated on page 407. Often their position with regard to the issue involved is well known, however, and they are frequently chosen to protect the interests of each opposing side. They normally vote themselves." (Emphasis added). Note that this provision does not specifically prohibit a candidate from being a teller, but the better procedure is that the tellers not be candidates, although it is generally permissible and sometimes even customary that the candidates are permitted to witness the counting of the ballots.

This is getting into a grey and perhaps dangerous area as far as RONR is concerned. Here is the pertinent language from page 467 of RONR re the duty of a member parliamentarian to maintain an appearance of impartiality and to not participate in debate, make motions or vote except when the vote is by ballot: "A member of an assembly who acts as its parliamentarian has the same duty as the presiding officer to maintain a position of impartiality, and therefore does not make motions, participate in debate, or vote on any question except in the case of a ballot vote. He does not cast a deciding vote, even if his vote would affect the result, since that would interfere with the chair's prerogative of doing so. If a member feels that he cannot properly forgo these rights in order to serve as parliamentarian, he should not accept that position. Unlike the presiding officer, the parliamentarian cannot temporarily relinquish his position in order to exercise such rights on a particular motion." I'm sure others will weigh in with their opinions, but I think that if it is desired that the member parliamentarian be allowed to do those things you mentioned, it is best that the society adopt a special rule of order specifically permitting the parliamentarian, if a member of the society, to serve on and to chair the bylaws committee, to participate fully in its deliberations, to report on behalf of the committee, to make motions on behalf of the committee (and, if desired, to participate in debate and or make motions and vote in the assembly regarding recommendations of the bylaws committee). Such a special rule can be tailored to fit your particular needs. I am assuming that he was appointed to the committee by the chair or the assembly and that the bylaws do not specify that he shall serve on or chair the committee. If the bylaws specify that the parliamentarian shall serve on or chair the committee, that changes things somewhat. Another alternative, if this is a one-time occurrence and not routine, is to suspend the rules so as to permit the parliamentarian to participate fully in the deliberations and report of the bylaws committee and in the deliberations and votes on committee recommendations when the recommendations are being considered by the assembly. Stay tuned and check back regularly. I suspect some of our regular posters may be of the opinion that the member parliamentarian may not do any of those things without suspending the rules or adopting a special rule of order. There may also be others who see nothing wrong with the parliamentarian doing the things you specifically mentioned in your quoted post. Ultimately it is up to your society to determine to what extent the member parliamentarian can participate in these enumerated activities. If someone raises a point of order that it is not permitted, the chair should rule on the point of order. If there is no appeal, then that is that: the chair's ruling is final. If there is an appeal from the chair's ruling, which requires one member to appeal and another member to second the appeal, the issue is decided by a vote of the assembly. It requires a majority vote to overturn the ruling of the chair. A tie vote sustains the chair's ruling. The decision of the assembly on an appeal is final and is precedent (until overturned) on the same issue if it comes up again at a future session. Keep in mind that even if the chair (or the assembly) rules that the anticipated actions are not permitted, the rules may still be suspended by a two thirds vote to permit it in this particular case.

Byron, as other comments suggested, please quote the exact bylaws provisions regarding write-in candidates. Please quote exactly, don't paraphrase.

Guest Ray, in the future please ask a new question by starting a new topic, even if it seems that your question fits with an existing topic. Mr. Gerber explains how to start a new topic in the first pinned post in the forum. It says, "IMPORTANT, READ THIS FIRST" That's the custom and preferred procedure in this forum.

As Mr. Katz pointed out, it depends on the exact wording of the bylaws. However, based on the information you have provided, it appears to me that the quoted provision applies only to the National Organization and that state and local affiliates are free to adopt their own provisions regarding their own nominating committees. I do not interpret the quoted provision as requiring that the state and local affiliates be bound by that provision. Ultimately, however, it is up to the organization itself to interpret its own bylaws. The bylaws need to be looked at as a whole, as there might be other applicable provisions and it may be possible to determine the intent based on a reading of the complete set of bylaws.

I agree with Mr. Katz. Your organization is free to adopt a rule or a bylaw Amendment requiring some sort of waiting period for situations such as this, but in the absence of such a provision, a defeated motion can be renewed (made again) at each subsequent meeting (session).

Agreeing with the responses by Mr. Harrison and Mr. Huynh, an entry in the minutes is not necessary to prove that a motion was adopted. The minute entry is merely evidence of its adoption. Once the minutes are approved, they might become prima facie evidence of the adoption or non adoption of a motion, but nonetheless evidence which can be overcome with sufficient other evidence that the motion was or was not in fact adopted.

As long as it doesn't have anything to do with approving the minutes! 😈