nominating ballot

[cam]

We received the following instructions for voting:

On the Nominating Committee slip below, please enter the names you suggest, sign the slip, and drop it in the slot box in the kitchen door in the Clubhouse or put in an envelope and mail to: Nominating Committee----------at our address on the letterhead above.

During a phone call a shareholder questioned signing the ballot and the President said if you did not want to sign it, to put it in an envelope and sign the envelope and drop in the slot box or mail it. Since then several others have used this method to vote.

My question is should these votes count as they were not signed as originally instructed. I am against signing a ballot, but feel that given we had written instructions as to how to vote and since the alternate method was verbal,

Do all votes count?

Thank you,

CAM

[Rob Elsman]

We received the following instructions for voting:

On the Nominating Committee slip below, please enter the names you suggest, sign the slip, and drop it in the slot box in the kitchen door in the Clubhouse or put in an envelope and mail to: Nominating Committee----------at our address on the letterhead above.

During a phone call a shareholder questioned signing the ballot and the President said if you did not want to sign it, to put it in an envelope and sign the envelope and drop in the slot box or mail it. Since then several others have used this method to vote.

My question is should these votes count as they were not signed as originally instructed. I am against signing a ballot, but feel that given we had written instructions as to how to vote and since the alternate method was verbal,

Do all votes count?

Thank you,

CAM

No rule in RONR empowers a nominating committee to send out ballots, give instructions on completing them, or determine what should, or should not, be done with whatever is returned. Are you sure this committee had the authority to do all this? Where did it get all this power?

[jstackpo]

Nomination (as clearly different from election) ballots are described in RONR - p. 422.

There doesn't seem to be any implications that these are secret ballots (others may see things differently, stay tuned!) and since floor and committee nominations are not "secret", I don't see a problem with either secret or signed ballots.

If your bylaws describe how your nominating ballots are to be handled, look there for a more definitive answer.

[cam]

No rule in RONR empowers a nominating committee to send out ballots, give instructions on completing them, or determine what should, or should not, be done with whatever is returned. Are you sure this committee had the authority to do all this? Where did it get all this power?

The board of Directors sent out ballots for us to put down the names of people we would like to serve on the nominating committee. I am trying to find out if ballots not signed should be counted. I do not like the idea of signing a ballot, but complied as I wanted my vote to count. If the directions say you are to sign the ballot, then do ballots not signed get counted. I do not think we should rely on a verbal directions to change the written ones and am not sure on what authority the president has to change the written directions.

Thank, Carol

[Rob Elsman]

The board of Directors sent out ballots for us to put down the names of people we would like to serve on the nominating committee. I am trying to find out if ballots not signed should be counted. I do not like the idea of signing a ballot, but complied as I wanted my vote to count. If the directions say you are to sign the ballot, then do ballots not signed get counted. I do not think we should rely on a verbal directions to change the written ones and am not sure on what authority the president has to change the written directions.

Thank, Carol

No rule in RONR empowers an executive board to send out ballots for nominations for the nominating committee. So, where did it get the authority to do this?

[tctheatc]

We received the following instructions for voting:

On the Nominating Committee slip below, please enter the names you suggest, sign the slip, and drop it in the slot box in the kitchen door in the Clubhouse or put in an envelope and mail to: Nominating Committee----------at our address on the letterhead above.

During a phone call a shareholder questioned signing the ballot and the President said if you did not want to sign it, to put it in an envelope and sign the envelope and drop in the slot box or mail it. Since then several others have used this method to vote.

My question is should these votes count as they were not signed as originally instructed. I am against signing a ballot, but feel that given we had written instructions as to how to vote and since the alternate method was verbal,

Do all votes count?

Thank you,

CAM

I'm unclear as to whether this was an election or solicitation of nominations. Appears to be the latter, but with some voting terminology thrown in.

[cam]

No rule in RONR empowers an executive board to send out ballots for nominations for the nominating committee. So, where did it get the authority to do this?

Our by-laws state:

Section 2. Nominating Committee

At least sixty (60)days prior to the annual shareholders meeting, each shareholder may submit to the Board of Directors a list of five (5) names of shareholders which he/she proposes for the nominating committee, or return a proposal slip marked "No Comment". The Board of Directors shall appoint to the nominating committee five (5) shareholders selected in the order of frequency of names submitted by the shareholders and provide suggested procedural guidelines to the nominating committee.

All shareholders shall be eligible for appointment to the nominating committee, but each share shall have only one committee member. The nominating committee shall interview and select candidates for corporation offers and directions to be elected by the shareholders. The shareholders meeting its recommendations for candidates for officers and directions shall be incorporated by the corporation secretary in the notice of the annual shareholders meeting and mailed or delivered to each shareholder at least fourteen (14) days before the annual shareholders meeting.

I don't disagree with the authority just that they stated you must sign and now a verbal directive says you do not have to and I want to know if signed and unsigned slips should both be counted, since the unsigned ones are not

submitted according to the specific directions.

I feel that the Board should come up with a specific way to vote, either unsigned or signed ballots and stick to the written directions and count votes accordingly.

Thanks, Carol

[jstackpo]

With the details from your bylaws in hand, it is now clear that this is really an election ballot - you vote for the 5 you like for service on the nominating committee where "everybody" is in effect nominated, or available for service. Top five win.

In that case the board should follow the "double envelope" system described in RONR, p. 409 ff., and assure secrecy of ALL the ballots.

So what to do? Are you on the Board - I guess not. Complain to someone who is and they can raise a point of order next board meeting. And maybe do it over or get it right next time.

[cam]

With the details from your bylaws in hand, it is now clear that this is really an election ballot - you vote for the 5 you like for service on the nominating committee where "everybody" is in effect nominated, or available for service. Top five win.

In that case the board should follow the "double envelope" system described in RONR, p. 409 ff., and assure secrecy of ALL the ballots.

So what to do? Are you on the Board - I guess not. Complain to someone who is and they can raise a point of order next board meeting. And maybe do it over or get it right next time.

Thank you so much, I agree, and will bring it up to a Board Member, could you please tell me what section the

double envelope system is mentioned. I have an old RONR and it does not have that many pages.

Thanks, CAM

[Guest GcT]

CAM, if your book doesn't even have 409 pages, it's not an RONR at all.

We all here at The Robert's Rules Website Forum's Authenticity Patrol recommend that you do look at The Right Book. We can't even tell which edition (or knockoff) of Robert's Rules you're benightedly looking at. If you're in a hurry before your copy of RONR arrives this afternoon, try looking in your book's index under voting, or elections, or ballots. Or thumb around in those areas of the text.

[Chris Harrison]

CAM, if your book doesn't even have 409 pages, it's not an RONR at all.

We all here at The Robert's Rules Website Forum's Authenticity Patrol recommend that you do look at The Right Book. We can't even tell which edition (or knockoff) of Robert's Rules you're benightedly looking at. If you're in a hurry before your copy of RONR arrives this afternoon, try looking in your book's index under voting, or elections, or ballots. Or thumb around in those areas of the text.

I'm not sure when the last Edition of Robert's Rules had less than 409 pages. IIRC, the 4th had more than 409 pages so it would have to be before then. If my memory doesn't fail me (which it does often) the original Robert's Rules was a pocket manual and had less than 100 pages. Does anyone know?

[Dan Honemann]

I'm not sure when the last Edition of Robert's Rules had less than 409 pages. IIRC, the 4th had more than 409 pages so it would have to be before then. If my memory doesn't fail me (which it does often) the original Robert's Rules was a pocket manual and had less than 100 pages. Does anyone know?

Yes.

[Guest GcT]

Does anyone know?

Sure, plenty of people.

[Guest GcT]

(O Great Steaming Cobnuts.)

[Gary Novosielski]

The 1876 Pocket Manual had almost 200 pages.

[jstackpo]

The first (1876) edition had 176 pages. RONR/10 has over 750 if you include the XLVIII introductory pages.

RONRIB (2004) just "happens" to have 176 pages, too.

Coincidence?

I. Don't. Think. So.

[David A Foulkes]

Thank you so much, I agree, and will bring it up to a Board Member, could you please tell me what section the

double envelope system is mentioned. I have an old RONR and it does not have that many pages.

Thanks, CAM

CAM - take a look here for the Right Book. It's the 2000 edition of Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised, (10th Edition, De Capo Press).

[hmtcastle]

Does anyone know?

My copy of the 75th Anniversary Edition (aka the 6th) is numbered through p. 326.

[David A Foulkes]

My Idiot's Guide to Robert's Rules for Dummies has over 1000 pages, if you count the funny cartoons that start each chapter, the "How to use this book" section at the beginning, and the "why save a tree?" handy blank Notes pages at the back, which still remain blank to this day. But it was a bargain at $3.99 from the sale table at Barnes and Noble, so how could I refuse?

[Josh Martin]

I'm not sure when the last Edition of Robert's Rules had less than 409 pages. IIRC, the 4th had more than 409 pages so it would have to be before then. If my memory doesn't fail me (which it does often) the original Robert's Rules was a pocket manual and had less than 100 pages. Does anyone know?

The last edition to have less than 409 pages was the sixth edition with 326 pages. The 4th edition had 323 pages, and the first edition had 176 pages. See this site for more information.

The seventh edition was when "Newly Revised" was added to the title and it had 594 pages, so Mr. Tesser is correct that the original poster certainly does not have a copy of RONR. It's possible that he simply has an old edition of RO or ROR, but I think it's more likely he has a knockoff.