Guest R. Edwards Posted October 1, 2012 at 06:09 PM Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 at 06:09 PM Under Robert's Rules of Order, on an open ballot, is it a requirement to maintain a record of how individuals vote? In other words, is it necessary to number ballots or use some other process such that one can check ballots to see how each person votes? My primary question is if I am conducting an election using a "open" ballot process, does that mean one should be able to tell how individuals vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted October 1, 2012 at 06:29 PM Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 at 06:29 PM What do you mean by "open ballot process"? Normally ballots are secret with no record of the voter's identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted October 1, 2012 at 06:40 PM Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 at 06:40 PM "Open Ballot" is not a term found in RONR. So any rules you may have about the process will, perforce, have to be of your own making and interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 1, 2012 at 07:21 PM Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 at 07:21 PM Under Robert's Rules of Order, on an open ballot, is it a requirement to maintain a record of how individuals vote? In other words, is it necessary to number ballots or use some other process such that one can check ballots to see how each person votes? My primary question is if I am conducting an election using a "open" ballot process, does that mean one should be able to tell how individuals vote?You may want to look at what RONR (11th ed.) says about signed ballots on page 420, lines 19-26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted October 2, 2012 at 02:22 AM Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 at 02:22 AM As Dan said, it sounds like a signed ballot, the purpose of which is to record how people voted, so yes, it would be recorded the same way as a roll-call vote would, except the names are not called out loud.There is no need to develop numbers or coding systems to do this. If the vote is to be secret, use a secret ballot. If the vote is to be recorded by name, use a signed ballot. A person's signature is easier to verify than some code number, and less prone to error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted October 2, 2012 at 11:13 AM Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 at 11:13 AM As Dan said, it sounds like a signed ballot. . .I'm not so sure. If that were the case, the answer to R. Edwards' questions would be, as you suggest, self-evident. I suspect this "open ballot" is a horse of a different color. And an oxymoronic horse at that.Perhaps R. Edwards will clear things up. He should note that the "signed ballot" referred to is, essentially, a roll-call vote. Is that what he has in mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 2, 2012 at 11:56 AM Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 at 11:56 AM I'm not so sure. If that were the case, the answer to R. Edwards' questions would be, as you suggest, self-evident. I suspect this "open ballot" is a horse of a different color. And an oxymoronic horse at that.Perhaps R. Edwards will clear things up. He should note that the "signed ballot" referred to is, essentially, a roll-call vote. Is that what he has in mind?None of us is sure what R. Edwards means by "open ballot" (the term does not appear anywhere in RONR or RONRIB), but suggesting a look at what RONR says about signed ballots at least enables him (or her) to make a determination as to whether or not it is applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R. Edwards Posted October 3, 2012 at 03:16 PM Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 at 03:16 PM Quite frankly I'm not too sure either what I'm asking. As has been indicated, I too am beginning to think that the phrase "open ballot" it is an oxymoron. Our By-Laws, which were adopted a long time ago has a provision in it that all voting shall be by open ballot. No one really seems to know what that mean but at times discussions occur where certain individuals try to make it seem that have some idea. The last time the discussion came up and it was problem was when we were voting and individuals were demanding to see ballotsafter the election so they could determine how individuals voted. Since I was running the election process, because of circumstances ballots were not processed such that one could make that determination because in the end, most people agree - during an election - to the extent possible, how an individual votes should be kept confidential. Additionally, our Constitution and By-Laws both indicate that to the extent issues are not covered in them, we follow RONR. I am aware that the term does not appear in RONR and there is certainly nothing in our procedures that require a signed ballot. So when its convenient, those who think they know what it means from time to time try to develop a listing of individuals voting by number and match their number on the list to a number on the ballot as a means of tracking. Again, that is not a process I utilize - nor is it a requirement of our rules. Therefore, I always emphasize the importance of trying to maintain confidentiality. It seems that since technically there is no such thing, especially in RONR, and we have no provisions that require a signed ballot - when it comes to elections, etc., we should endeavor to keep how individuals vote confidential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted October 3, 2012 at 03:19 PM Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 at 03:19 PM . . . when it comes to elections, etc., we should endeavor to keep how individuals vote confidential?I'd say so, but what you should really do is amend your bylaws to strike (RONR-speak for "delete") the word "open". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted October 3, 2012 at 03:21 PM Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 at 03:21 PM Again, we really don't have any idea, either. It's up to your organization to decide what "open ballot" means, perhaps by adopting some additional rules regarding elections. Or you could amend your bylaws and make the ambiguity go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R. Edwards Posted October 3, 2012 at 03:21 PM Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 at 03:21 PM Quite frankly I'm not too sure either what I'm asking. As has been indicated, I too am beginning to think that the phrase "open ballot" it is an oxymoron. Our By-Laws, which were adopted a long time ago has a provision in it that all voting shall be by open ballot. No one really seems to know what that mean but at times discussions occur where certain individuals try to make it seem that have some idea. The last time the discussion came up and it was problem was when we were voting and individuals were demanding to see ballotsafter the election so they could determine how individuals voted. Since I was running the election process, because of circumstances ballots were not processed such that one could make that determination because in the end, most people agree - during an election - to the extent possible, how an individual votes should be kept confidential. Additionally, our Constitution and By-Laws both indicate that to the extent issues are not covered in them, we follow RONR. I am aware that the term does not appear in RONR and there is certainly nothing in our procedures that require a signed ballot. So when its convenient, those who think they know what it means from time to time try to develop a listing of individuals voting by number and match their number on the list to a number on the ballot as a means of tracking. Again, that is not a process I utilize - nor is it a requirement of our rules. Therefore, I always emphasize the importance of trying to maintain confidentiality. It seems that since technically there is no such thing, especially in RONR, and we have no provisions that require a signed ballot - when it comes to elections, etc., we should endeavor to keep how individuals vote confidential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted October 3, 2012 at 05:10 PM Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 at 05:10 PM So, what you're saying is that since you don't really know what "open ballot" means in your bylaws, you try to make the voting as un-open as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted October 3, 2012 at 05:35 PM Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 at 05:35 PM So, what you're saying is that since you don't really know what "open ballot" means in your bylaws, you try to make the voting as un-open as possible.Or, to put it another way, trying to make the voting as "ballot-like" as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMargaret Posted October 3, 2012 at 11:37 PM Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 at 11:37 PM Amend your bylaws to something that you can determine what it means.You have seem to have two main choices:* ballots are "ballot-like" - the principal of secrecy of voting is important* ballots are open and public - the principal of knowing how other people voted is importantTypically, in RONR, when you want to know how other people vote, you hold a voice vote (or roll call vote), and when you hold an actual ballot it is to assure more privacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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