Discussion before or after a motion

[Guest Shannon]

I am involved in a small horse show club and we have been having discussion on things like awards to offer, classes to hold, positions to pay at the show, etc.  One member is saying that we are not allowed to have discussion on anything on the agenda until there has been a motion and a 2nd and then discussion.

 

I have always been under the impression that we can bring up the topic of lets say show awards and people can throw out ideas and such.  Then we can have a motion to approve X idea and if we get a 2nd then we can proceed to further discussion (how many to purchase, where to purchase, etc).

 

Or as the chair do I have to ask for a motion and a 2nd to even discuss things?  And if so, then once we come up with an idea are we going to need a 2nd motion and another 2nd to proceed with whatever the discussion has lead us to?  Because if we need to have a motion & a second to get to discussion, the original motion really has nothing that we can vote on.

 

Thanks,

Shannon

[Gary c Tesser]

Strictly speaking, in a group of more than about a dozen, having a specific proposal -- a motion -- pending keeps discussion focussed, on track, and, generally, interesting.  Chaos may produce occasional brilliance, but focus does not inhibit it.

 

Smaller groups, on the other hand, can often function best when run more loosely (see RONR - In Brief, p. 158, or RONR, p. 487 - 488).  Something like what you describe in your second paragraph.

 

But this is not necessary:

Or as the chair do I have to ask for a motion and a 2nd to even discuss things?  And if so, then once we come up with an idea are we going to need a 2nd motion and another 2nd to proceed with whatever the discussion has lead us to?  Because if we need to have a motion & a second to get to discussion, the original motion really has nothing that we can vote on.

 

Thanks,

Shannon

 

See, the motion is not to discuss:  it is to do something. Such as, to give out this, that, and the other awards; to hold such-and-such classes; what positions to pay at the show.  The discussion that follows -- debate -- is to ascertain whether the proposal is a good idea, whether it should be modified, etc.

 

As the chair, you shouldn't have to be picking this up piecemeal, or making it up as you go along like Indiana Jones.  Please, please get a copy of RONR - In Brief, at once, and read it at once.  Preferably then-and-there, without leaving the bookstore, before you go back to work, before eating, definitely don't leave it for first thing tomorrow.  Then you can come back here, to the world's premier Internet parliamentary forum, and ask some more questions.

[Guest Shannon]

Thank you - that has always been my understanding of ROR is that the motion is to actually take action not just to discuss.  But when the group is unsure what direction we want to take to accomplish our goal or even whether or not we want to take a specific action (like do we want to give prizes for 1st & 2nd or just 1st or not give prizes at all), the item is brought to the floor either by an agenda item for discussion or a member taking the floor to ask for discussion.  Then we have general discussion to parse through that and then have a motion to do a specific action.

 

I have a copy of ROR on my computer that I have read through and refer to, but sometimes the formal language gets me tripped up in such a small, informal organization.  And when the person who is supposed to be most familiar with ROR said that we could have zero discussion without a motion I needed a 2nd opinion.  So I appreciate your feedback!

[jstackpo]

A copy of "ROR" on your computer may well be an old (or even ancient) edition.  What is the exact title of the book you have and what is the copyright date?

[Weldon Merritt]

Mr. Tesser's answer is correct, but there is an alternative. If someone has a vague idea that maybe something ought to be done, but he is not sure what (or maybe even whether), he could move that a committee be appointed to consider the issue and report its recommendation to the assembly. The committee would operate under RONR's relaxed rules for committees, which do allow for discussion with no motion pending. Then once the committee has formulated its recomemndation, it would report the recommendation to the assembly and move its adoption. That motion would then be open to debate and amendment.

[Josh Martin]

Thank you - that has always been my understanding of ROR is that the motion is to actually take action not just to discuss.  But when the group is unsure what direction we want to take to accomplish our goal or even whether or not we want to take a specific action (like do we want to give prizes for 1st & 2nd or just 1st or not give prizes at all), the item is brought to the floor either by an agenda item for discussion or a member taking the floor to ask for discussion.  Then we have general discussion to parse through that and then have a motion to do a specific action.

 

Such "general discussion" is not in order except in committees and small boards. A member could move to have a general discussion on a topic. Such a motion would be undebatable and require a majority vote for adoption. Another option might be to adopt a motion to Recess. That motion is also undebatable and requires a majority vote for adoption. As noted (if you have the time), it may be better to have a committee look into such details. A motion to Commit is debatable, amendable, and requires a majority vote for adoption.

 

How small is this club, anyway? If there are generally not more than about a dozen members present, then it may be practical to adopt the small board rules, which do permit discussion without a motion pending. In a larger assembly, however, I find that this tends to do more harm than good.

[Edgar Guest]

I am involved in a small horse show club . . . 

 

How small is this club, anyway?

 

I thought it was the horses that were small.

[Guest Saint Cad]

 

 

Smaller groups, on the other hand, can often function best when run more loosely (see RONR - In Brief, p. 158, or RONR, p. 487 - 488).  Something like what you describe in your second paragraph.

 

In my experience, you need a good chair to keep things on track with a loosely run meeting otherwise meetings last a lot longer than they should because everyone starts talking about their feelings.

[Timothy]

In my experience, you need a good chair to keep things on track with a loosely run meeting otherwise meetings last a lot longer than they should because everyone starts talking about their feelings.

 

Yeah, but you get to hear the latest gossip.