Guest Jim Shake, Jr. Posted July 9, 2014 at 02:27 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 at 02:27 PM I am a member of a volunteer fire department that uses Roberts Rules of Order for their meetings. Recently it was discovered that a By-Law Committee was formed with more members than is specified under our current By-Laws (the current by-laws state five members, nine members were appointed. This is a clear violation of the by-laws that are in effect making it an Illegal Commitee The committee put forth a partial set of by-laws that were voted upon for adoption and passed by the membership. The second half of the new by-laws have not yet been revised and put forth for approval. Therefore I have two questions: 1. Are the newly proposed partial set of by-laws that were put forth and voted upon for acceptance by the illegally formed committee valid? It would seem to me that if in fact the by-law committee that was appointed was in violation of the current operating by-laws that the work that they put forth would be null and void even though they were voted upon. Is it proper to have accepted work from the illegal committee? After having it pointed out to the organization that the committee formed was in violation of the existing by-laws, the did in fact dismiss the current committee and re-elect a committee with the proper number of members, some not on the originally formed committee that conducted the first part of the by-law change. 2. Can the organization conduct the business of their Annual Meeting using two (2) sets of by laws. The organization is planning on using the first five (5) articles of the new by-laws, and the last fifteen (15) articles of the current by-laws. Thanks for any and all help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted July 9, 2014 at 02:44 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 at 02:44 PM I am a member of a volunteer fire department that uses Roberts Rules of Order for their meetings. Recently it was discovered that a By-Law Committee was formed with more members than is specified under our current By-Laws (the current by-laws state five members, nine members were appointed. This is a clear violation of the by-laws that are in effect making it an Illegal Commitee The committee put forth a partial set of by-laws that were voted upon for adoption and passed by the membership. The second half of the new by-laws have not yet been revised and put forth for approval. Therefore I have two questions: 1. Are the newly proposed partial set of by-laws that were put forth and voted upon for acceptance by the illegally formed committee valid? It would seem to me that if in fact the by-law committee that was appointed was in violation of the current operating by-laws that the work that they put forth would be null and void even though they were voted upon. Is it proper to have accepted work from the illegal committee? After having it pointed out to the organization that the committee formed was in violation of the existing by-laws, the did in fact dismiss the current committee and re-elect a committee with the proper number of members, some not on the originally formed committee that conducted the first part of the by-law change. 2. Can the organization conduct the business of their Annual Meeting using two (2) sets of by laws. The organization is planning on using the first five (5) articles of the new by-laws, and the last fifteen (15) articles of the current by-laws. Thanks for any and all help. 1) No, it's too late to worry about that now. The membership adopted the changes, not the committee, so it's done. 2) It's possible that carefully crafted provisos could accomplish what you want. RONR (11th ed.), pp. 597-8, but there's no way to be sure. I wouldn't bet the first round of Beefeaters, neat, on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted July 9, 2014 at 02:58 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 at 02:58 PM Even though the committee was improper, once their recommendations became a motion before the general membership, that didn't matter. The bylaws that the organization adopted are now the current bylaws and there are no longer "new bylaws and current bylaws" only current bylaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted July 9, 2014 at 03:42 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 at 03:42 PM . . . and there are no longer "new bylaws and current bylaws" only current bylaws. Which, presumably, are the new bylaws. So the new bylaws are the current bylaws and the current bylaws are the new bylaws. By the way, Mr. Shake should note that even though "bylaws" appears to be a plural noun, you can't pick and choose among the articles ( e.g. five from Column A and fifteen from Column B ). The bylaws are, in that sense, indivisible (with liberty and justice for all?).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted July 9, 2014 at 04:32 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 at 04:32 PM Which, presumably, are the new bylaws. So the new bylaws are the current bylaws and the current bylaws are the new bylaws. But the old bylaws were the new bylaws when they were the current bylaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted July 9, 2014 at 05:05 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 at 05:05 PM But the old bylaws were the new bylaws when they were the current bylaws. Well, we don't know when the old bylaws were adopted so I'm not sure we can characterize them as "new" (though certainly they were new at some point in time). In any event, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted July 9, 2014 at 06:21 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 at 06:21 PM Thanks everyone for your help. It has indeed become confusing. One more question:This is a total by-law revision for the departmentThe departments full set of by-laws have 21 Articles in them. The by-law committee only forwarded the the first 5 Articles that were voted on for adoption. The departments intent is to use the newly adopted (First Five) articles combined with the 16 Articles of the old by-laws (which are the current by-laws ) Can the business of the Annual Meeting be conducted using 5 Articles (newly adopted) and 21 Articles that are yet to be revised by the committee?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted July 9, 2014 at 06:39 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 at 06:39 PM Can the business of the Annual Meeting be conducted using 5 Articles (newly adopted) and 21 Articles that are yet to be revised by the committee?? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted July 9, 2014 at 08:22 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 at 08:22 PM Can the business of the Annual Meeting be conducted using 5 Articles (newly adopted) and 21 Articles that are yet to be revised by the committee?? At the risk of beating this poor horse to death, it doesn't matter when any of the articles were adopted. The bylaws are the bylaws. So stop thinking in terms of individual articles and start thinking of the bylaws as a whole. And since you've adopted some but not all of the proposed revision, be on the lookout for any internal conflicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Ralph Posted July 12, 2014 at 08:43 AM Report Share Posted July 12, 2014 at 08:43 AM If five of the articles of the bylaws were properly amended and sixteen were not, you now have twenty-one articles of the current bylaws, five of which were amended recently.You really need to get this current/new bylaws business out of your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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