Definition of area or location

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

I know this is a ludicrous proposition.  But I am dealing with someone who would not agree with me if I said the sky was blue, but the assertion is that under RONR "area" can be the entire United States and thus everyone can stay home to participate in a national convention (and the bylaws do not authorize electronic participation at conventions btw).

I would like to get some other people explaining how bizarre that is that are other than me.  Will it help?  Probably not, but others are reading the reddit discussion and perhaps it will educate them as I provided the link to the discussion here.  

Edited March 2, 2021 at 07:32 PM by Caryn Ann Harlos

[George Mervosh]

You can show them 9:30-31, but they'll probably quibble about what a "face-to-face" meeting means in 9:31.  And it's one room or area, not area or location.

Edited March 2, 2021 at 07:57 PM by George Mervosh

[J. J.]

I would go with 1:1, second bullet point. 

In theory, if everyone in the US could have "simultaneous aural communications," the US could be the area.  If I talk now it will take time for my voice to reach you due to the speed of sound, at the very least. 

[Richard Brown]

RONR (12th ed.) sections 1:1 (second bullet point and also the footnote), 8:2 (1), 9:30 and 9:31, when taken together, make it crystal clear that the phrase "one room or area" means a physical room or small area in which the members are physically present.  Further, 8:2 (1), 9:30 and 9:31 make it equally clear that electronic meetings are not permitted unless authorized in the bylaws.

Here is the text of 8:2 (1):

A meeting of an assembly is a single official gathering of its members in one room or area to transact business for a length of time during which there is no cessation of proceedings and the members do not separate, unless for a short recess, as defined below. (For modification of the “one-room-or-area” requirement when the bylaws authorize electronic meetings, see 9: 30– 36.) Depending on the business to be transacted, a meeting may last from a few minutes to several hours.  (Emphasis added)

Here is the text of 9:30 and 9:31:

Electronic Meetings 9: 30 Extension of Parliamentary Law to Electronic Meetings. Except as authorized in the bylaws, the business of an organization or board can be validly transacted only at a regular or properly called meeting— that is, as defined in 8: 2( 1), a single official gathering in one room or area— of the assembly of its members at which a quorum is present.  (Emphasis added)

9: 31 Among some organizations, there is an increasing preference, especially in the case of a relatively small board or other assembly, to transact business at electronic meetings— that is, at meetings at which, rather than all participating members being physically present in one room or area as in traditional (or “face-to-face”) meetings, some or all of them communicate with the others through electronic means such as the Internet or by telephone. A group that holds such alternative meetings does not lose its character as a deliberative assembly (see 1: 1) so long as the meetings provide, at a minimum, conditions of opportunity for simultaneous aural communication among all participating members equivalent to those of meetings held in one room or area. Under such conditions, an electronic meeting that is properly authorized in the bylaws is treated as though it were a meeting at which all the members who are participating are actually present.  (Emphasis addedd)

So, even if one could somehow misconstrue "one room or area" to mean the entire United States of America, including Alaska and Hawaii and possibly even Puerto Rico, Guam (and the other eleven or so unincorporated territories), RONR is still quite clear that electronic meetings are not permissible unless  authorized in the bylaws.

BTW, the idea that the internet is a "place" is even more ludicrous!

 

 

 

 

[Josh Martin]

1 hour ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

I know this is a ludicrous proposition.  But I am dealing with someone who would not agree with me if I said the sky was blue, but the assertion is that under RONR "area" can be the entire United States and thus everyone can stay home to participate in a national convention (and the bylaws do not authorize electronic participation at conventions btw).

I would like to get some other people explaining how bizarre that is that are other than me.  Will it help?  Probably not, but others are reading the reddit discussion and perhaps it will educate them as I provided the link to the discussion here.  

"Except as authorized in the bylaws, the business of an organization or board can be validly transacted only at a regular or properly called meeting—that is, as defined in 8:2(1), a single official gathering in one room or area—of the assembly of its members at which a quorum is present.

Among some organizations, there is an increasing preference, especially in the case of a relatively small board or other assembly, to transact business at electronic meetings—that is, at meetings at which, rather than all participating members being physically present in one room or area as in traditional (or “face-to-face”) meetings, some or all of them communicate with the others through electronic means such as the Internet or by telephone. A group that holds such alternative meetings does not lose its character as a deliberative assembly (see 1:1) so long as the meetings provide, at a minimum, conditions of opportunity for simultaneous aural communication among all participating members equivalent to those of meetings held in one room or area. Under such conditions, an electronic meeting that is properly authorized in the bylaws is treated as though it were a meeting at which all the members who are participating are actually present." RONR (12th ed.) 9:30-9:31

If one looks only at the word "area" and ignores literally everything else that is said in this rule, I suppose I can see how one might attempt to interpret the word "area" quite broadly. When in read full context, however, such as in the phrase "being physically present in one room or area as in traditional (or "face-to-face") meetings", however, it seems obvious on the face of it that the word "area," in this context, means an area small enough where members can see and hear each other. The purpose of the words "or area" is quite clearly to allow for meetings which are held in circumstances where the word "room" is inapplicable, such as outdoors (although still in a relatively small area), not to allow electronic meetings throughout the "area" of the United States, since the rest of the rule makes it quite clear that electronic meetings are only permitted if authorized in the bylaws.

Edited March 2, 2021 at 09:17 PM by Josh Martin

[Guest Caryn Ann Harlos]

1 hour ago, George Mervosh said:

You can show them 9:30-31, but they'll probably quibble about what a "face-to-face" meeting means in 9:31.  And it's one room or area, not area or location.

Yeah I saw and edited my post for that error once I caught it.  I did mean area.  Of course there is also the issue that it would be nonsense for RONR to say electronic meetings have to be specifically authorized if the default one room or area could mean the entire country.  

[Guest Caryn Ann Harlos]

Thank you everyone.  I am sure some of the readers (not my antagonist) will find the discussion interesting as not everyone is that familiar with RONR.

[Richard Brown]

Adding to my previous comment, if "one room or area" can be construed to be the entire United States, why limit it to the United States?  Why not North America?  Or the world?  Or our solar system?   Why not "the universe"?   I'm afraid those arguing with you over the meaning of "one room or place" just don't like the  rule and are grasping at straws (very weak, tiny and far away straws!) in an effort to say it's ok to have electronic meetings.

[Richard Brown]

For what it is worth, the second most popular parliamentary authority in the United States, the American Institute of Parliamentarians' Standard Code of Parliamentary Practice, published in 2012, also provides on page 105 that a meeting "is an official assembly of the members of an organization or board during which the members remain together in one place except when there is a recess."  (Emphasis added).    It further provides on page 109 that telephone and videoconference electronic meetings can be held only if "such meetings are authorized in the bylaws and in applicable law". 

Demeter's Manual of Parliamentary Law and Procedure, a well respected parliamentary authority last published in 1969, prior to common use of the internet, does not mention conducting meetings or participating in meetings by telephone, but specifically prohibits voting by telephone unless authorized in the bylaws. (pp 33, 134).  It defines a meeting as "an assembly of persons for the purpose of discussing and acting on matters in which they have a common interest."  (p. 202)

Cannon's Concise Guide to Rules of Order, another recognized authority which was last published in 2001, provides that a meeting is "a single coming together of the members" "at the time and place announced in the notice".  (p. 4).  It does not mention participating remotely or voting by any means other than in person.