Minutes - what are the rules regarding Identifying a board member who has abstained from a vote in the minutes?

[Atul Kapur]

Sidestepping the question with another red herring, which I'm not going to grasp chase after. Please answer the question raised by Mr. Martin and myself 

Edited February 8, 2022 at 03:28 AM by Atul Kapur

[Rob Elsman]

§30 and §33 deal with different motions that have different purposes.

[Weldon Merritt]

On 2/7/2022 at 5:33 PM, Rob Elsman said:

§30 and §33 deal with different motions that have different purposes.

Exactly! So why are you trying to use one to argue use of the other?

[Rob Elsman]

I apologize for being abrupt, but I think I have said all that I need or want to say.

[Shmuel Gerber]

Perhaps Mr. Elsman's reasoning is as follows: When a vote is taken by a method other than roll call or signed ballot — which the assembly generally has the option of ordering, but in this case chose not to — there is a reasonable expectation on the part of the members that their individual votes will not be recorded. Therefore, while a member may request the privilege of having his or her own vote or abstention recorded in the minutes, a motion to request that someone else's vote be recorded is out of order, even by a suspension of the rules.

I'll have to think about whether I agree with this, but the reasoning seems pretty solid to me. 🙂

[J. J.]

On 2/8/2022 at 9:08 AM, Shmuel Gerber said:

Perhaps Mr. Elsman's reasoning is as follows: When a vote is taken by a method other than roll call or signed ballot — which the assembly generally has the option of ordering, but in this case chose not to — there is a reasonable expectation on the part of the members that their individual votes will not be recorded. Therefore, while a member may request the privilege of having his or her own vote or abstention recorded in the minutes, a motion to request that someone else's vote be recorded is out of order, even by a suspension of the rules.

I'll have to think about whether I agree with this, but the reasoning seems pretty solid to me. 🙂

I am aware that this is an attempt to state Mr. Elsman's opinion and you might not share it.

There are a number of reasons some rule could not be suspended.  It may not have an application within a meeting, it may violate an FPPL,  it any violate absentee rights, a procedure rule in statute, or it may violate the basic right of an individual member.* 

The closest that this comes to would be the basic right of an individual member.  I know of no basic right of an individual member to not have vote recorded in the minutes or to not have it recorded unless it is recorded in common with other members.  On that point, certainly 2/3 of the members voting can order it.

I come down on the side that the majority can add things to the minutes, including how a specific member voted.  I would also note that a standing vote could be ordered, by well less that the majority, and the member's vote could be witness by other members, spectators, or even recorded using a visual medium, without the voting member's approval.  The ability to have the vote recorded is not dependent on the whim of the individual member, but ultimately of the whim of the majority. 

*not necessarily an all inclusive list.

[Weldon Merritt]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:44 AM, J. J. said:

I come down on the side that the majority can add things to the minutes, including how a specific member voted.  I would also note that a standing vote could be ordered, by well less that the majority, and the member's vote could be witness by other members, spectators, or even recorded using a visual medium, without the voting member's approval.  The ability to have the vote recorded is not dependent on the whim of the individual member, but ultimately of the whim of the majority. 

Well said, and I totally concur.

[Atul Kapur]

On 2/8/2022 at 10:44 AM, J. J. said:

I come down on the side that the majority can add things to the minutes, including how a specific member voted.  I would also note that a standing vote could be ordered, by well less that the majority, and the member's vote could be witness by other members, spectators, or even recorded using a visual medium, without the voting member's approval.  The ability to have the vote recorded is not dependent on the whim of the individual member, but ultimately of the whim of the majority. 

On 2/8/2022 at 11:28 AM, Weldon Merritt said:

Well said, and I totally concur.

As do I. 

While I thank Mr. Gerber for trying to capture Mr. Elsman's presumed rationale, I note that, if "secrecy of the member's vote is desired" then a ballot vote should be held. Otherwise, I do not see a "reasonable expectation" that one's vote or abstention is secret - in fact the opposite - and I make the short leap that, as it is not secret, it violates no rule or expectation to have it recorded if the majority so decides.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 2/7/2022 at 7:26 PM, Rob Elsman said:

No, I am saying that a member may make a motion to have his own vote or abstention recorded in the minutes.  A pronoun agrees with its antecedent in number.  😊

If you want to dispute the use of their as a singular pronoun, go right ahead, but that train has sailed.