Can a council member vote for themselves for deputy mayor?

[Peter]

Robert's Rules state that a person (i.e. a Member of Council) can nominate themselves for an open officer position, but I see no mention of being able to actually vote for yourself. This seems to be a conflict of interest.

Yes, even the President of the United States can cast a vote for him or herself for President when they are a regular citizen, however, there are only 4-7 officials voting during a Council meeting, so it seems unfair and unethical that a council member may not only nominate themselves, but also give themselves a vote that would (if they win) effectively give them more power and authority as Deputy Mayor, especially when the town mayor had resigned prematurely and so the Deputy Mayor immediately became the Acting Mayor with all the rights, privileges, and authority of an actual publicly-elected mayor, without the public electing them to office.

 

Quote

 

Nominations from the Floor

As soon as the president opens nominations from the floor, any member can bring forth a nomination. However, the rules for a member nominating a candidate are the same as for the nominating committee. A member should know beforehand if the person he or she wishes to nominate is both eligible and willing to serve.

When the nomination is from the floor:

• A person can nominate himself or herself.

 

The Local Government Ethics Law in NJ prohibits even the appearance of a conflict of interest, yet such a vote appears to represent a very direct and actual conflict of interest.

When there are many millions of citizen voters voting for those seeking public office, this seems correct and fair. But elected officials voting to further elect themselves to higher office/more authority seems very unfair and unethical.

So, is voting for oneself in accordance with Robert's Rules? If so, where exactly does it state that a person can vote for him or herself?

 

[George Mervosh]

"So, is voting for oneself in accordance with Robert's Rules? If so, where exactly does it state that a person can vote for him or herself?"

 "Voting on Questions Affecting Oneself. The rule on abstaining from voting on a question of direct personal interest does not mean that a member should not vote for himself for an office or other position to which members generally are eligible, or should not vote when other members are included with him in a motion. If a member never voted on a question affecting himself, it would be impossible for a society to vote to hold a banquet, or for the majority to prevent a small minority from preferring charges against them and suspending or expelling them (61, 63)."  RONR (12th ed.), 45:5

Edited February 18, 2022 at 03:56 PM by George Mervosh

[Josh Martin]

On 2/18/2022 at 9:49 AM, Peter said:

Robert's Rules state that a person (i.e. a Member of Council) can nominate themselves for an open officer position, but I see no mention of being able to actually vote for yourself.

There is in fact such a rule, as Mr. Mervosh has cited.

On 2/18/2022 at 9:49 AM, Peter said:

This seems to be a conflict of interest.

RONR does not use the term "conflict of interest." Rather, it states that a member who has a personal or pecuniary interest not in common with other members should abstain from voting. Even in that case, however, the member retains the right to vote.

"No member should vote on a question in which he has a direct personal or pecuniary interest not common to other members of the organization. For example, if a motion proposes that the organization enter into a contract with a commercial firm of which a member of the organization is an officer and from which contract he would derive personal pecuniary profit, the member should abstain from voting on the motion. However, no member can be compelled to refrain from voting in such circumstances." RONR (12th ed.) 45:4

As Mr. Mervosh notes, however, RONR specifically exempts voting for oneself in an election from the "personal or pecuniary interest" rule.

This is consistent with the general rule on this matter in RONR, which gives very strong protections for the right to vote. Under the rules in RONR, a member can only be deprived of the right to vote through disciplinary proceedings. Any other limitations on a member's right to vote would have to be found in the organization's bylaws or applicable law.

"A member of an assembly, in the parliamentary sense, as mentioned above, is a person entitled to full participation in its proceedings, that is, as explained in 3 and 4, the right to attend meetings, to make motions, to speak in debate, and to vote. No member can be individually deprived of these basic rights of membership—or of any basic rights concomitant to them, such as the right to make nominations or to give previous notice of a motion—except through disciplinary proceedings." RONR (12th ed.) 1:4, emphasis added

On 2/18/2022 at 9:49 AM, Peter said:

The Local Government Ethics Law in NJ prohibits even the appearance of a conflict of interest, yet such a vote appears to represent a very direct and actual conflict of interest.

So, is voting for oneself in accordance with Robert's Rules? If so, where exactly does it state that a person can vote for him or herself?

I do not have the slightest idea whether a council member voting for themselves for Deputy Mayor would violate the Local Government Ethics Law in New Jersey. That is a question for an attorney.

I can say with certainty, however, that a council member voting for themselves for Deputy Mayor violates no rule in RONR.

[JustinPappano]

On 2/18/2022 at 10:49 AM, Peter said:

When there are many millions of citizen voters voting for those seeking public office, this seems correct and fair. But elected officials voting to further elect themselves to higher office/more authority seems very unfair and unethical.

Irrespective of what the others have correctly said about RONR, if this quote was accurate, how would a municipality organize itself? Where I am from, Municipalities immediately after election vote for which of their own shall constitute committees of the council and other boards in the municipality - they all get paid for this. If you could not vote to fill a vacancy in these roles, why can you vote to fill them in the first place? Also, if you do not think it is right in the first place, how do you wish for governmental bodies to staff their committees and boards by lot?

 

Note: I am not a lawyer, let alone one in NJ, this not legal advice. 

Edited February 18, 2022 at 04:46 PM by JustinPappano

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 2/18/2022 at 10:49 AM, Peter said:

Robert's Rules state

The quote you provided does not seem to be from the current official edition. Please see https://robertsrules.com/books/ for information about getting the right book.

[Peter]

On 2/18/2022 at 10:54 AM, George Mervosh said:

"So, is voting for oneself in accordance with Robert's Rules? If so, where exactly does it state that a person can vote for him or herself?"

 "Voting on Questions Affecting Oneself. The rule on abstaining from voting on a question of direct personal interest does not mean that a member should not vote for himself for an office or other position to which members generally are eligible, or should not vote when other members are included with him in a motion. If a member never voted on a question affecting himself, it would be impossible for a society to vote to hold a banquet, or for the majority to prevent a small minority from preferring charges against them and suspending or expelling them (61, 63)."  RONR (12th ed.), 45:5

On 2/18/2022 at 11:45 AM, JustinPappano said:

Irrespective of what the others have correctly said about RONR, if this quote was accurate, how would a municipality organize itself? Where I am from, Municipalities immediately after election vote for which of their own shall constitute committees of the council and other boards in the municipality - they all get paid for this. If you could not vote to fill a vacancy in these roles, why can you vote to fill them in the first place? Also, if you do not think it is right in the first place, how do you wish for governmental bodies to staff their committees and boards by lot?

 

Note: I am not a lawyer, let alone one in NJ, this not legal advice. 

I don't think it's wrong for council members to vote on officers. That's necessary, as you've noted. But I think it's a conflict of interest to vote for yourself to give yourself more power and authority, which according to the NJ LGEL would seemingly amount to securing "unwarranted privileges or advantages" for oneself.

I'd say let the other council members vote for you if they wish, but I think one should abstain from voting for one's self. I'm not even crazy about nominating oneself, but RONR says it's fine, so nominate yourself if you wish, but I'd say leave the actual voting to others.

To me, it's a conflict of interest issue that Robert's Rules does not address, nor should it. On some level, I like that RONR doesn't get involved in that and puts its focus instead on acknowledging and protecting everyone's right to vote. However, it gets interesting when this position seems to pit Robert's Rules against local government ethics laws, as RONR explicitly permits voting to benefit oneself (i.e. voting for yourself to become "Deputy Mayor", etc.) while the NJ LGEL seems to explicitly prohibit one from voting to benefit oneself.

From NJ's LGEL:

"c. No local government officer or employee shall use or attempt to use his official position to secure unwarranted privileges or advantages for himself or others;" Link to NJ LGEL (PDF)

In this instance (not hypothetical), a certain local government officer used her official position "to secure unwarranted privileges and advantages for herself," in my opinion.

This is simply my current personal opinion on the matter, which may change as more information and understanding comes to light. But I really appreciate your and everyone else's responses on this. They are all excellent and appreciated.

Please pardon my quoting from an older edition. Thank you, Shmuel Gerber, for pointing that out.

Finally, I too am not an attorney, so nothing I post should ever be considered legal advice of any kind. Please seek out the advice of a qualified legal professional if you have any such questions.

[Josh Martin]

On 2/18/2022 at 12:52 PM, Peter said:

However, it gets interesting when this position seems to pit Robert's Rules against local government ethics laws, as RONR explicitly permits voting to benefit oneself (i.e. voting for yourself to become "Deputy Mayor", etc.) while the NJ LGEL seems to explicitly prohibit one from voting to benefit oneself.

If there is a conflict between Robert's Rules of Order and applicable law, then the law takes precedence.

I continue to take no position on what the law in question provides.

[Peter]

On 2/18/2022 at 2:03 PM, Josh Martin said:

If there is a conflict between Robert's Rules of Order and applicable law, then the law takes precedence.

I continue to take no position on what the law in question provides.

This was a helpful reminder. Thank you.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 2/18/2022 at 11:33 AM, Josh Martin said:

I do not have the slightest idea whether a council member voting for themselves for Deputy Mayor would violate the Local Government Ethics Law in New Jersey. That is a question for an attorney.

I am not an attorney, but I am a former NJ resident and school  board member.  And I certainly did vote for myself for Board President, which violated no rule.