2 different motions but same outcome.

[Drake Savory]

There is a prohibition against bringing up the same motion without using the proper rule (6:25).  My question is about using a second motion to produce the same outcome as a failed motion in the same meeting.  Basically, someone wants to Suspend the Rules to allow nominations after the period has closed under the Election Rules.  Naturally this takes a 2/3 vote and so let's suppose it fails.  Rule 31:4 says that a motion to reopen the polls only takes a majority vote so what if the person, realize their error, makes THAT motion?  Is it out of order because it has the same effect as a motion previously disposed of?

[Josh Martin]

On 3/15/2022 at 5:49 PM, Drake Savory said:

There is a prohibition against bringing up the same motion without using the proper rule (6:25).  My question is about using a second motion to produce the same outcome as a failed motion in the same meeting.  Basically, someone wants to Suspend the Rules to allow nominations after the period has closed under the Election Rules.  Naturally this takes a 2/3 vote and so let's suppose it fails.  Rule 31:4 says that a motion to reopen the polls only takes a majority vote so what if the person, realize their error, makes THAT motion?  Is it out of order because it has the same effect as a motion previously disposed of?

The chair should have pointed this out in the first place.

In any event, however, in the specific circumstances described, I think it would be in order for a member to move to reopen the polls.

[Bruce Lages]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:07 PM, Josh Martin said:

The chair should have pointed this out in the first place.

In any event, however, in the specific circumstances described, I think it would be in order for a member to move to reopen the polls.

Even if the organization has a rule that specifies a nomination period and that period seems to be over?

[Drake Savory]

Even if that is the case, would a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted to reopen the nominations be in order if the Motion to Suspend the Rules to reopen the nominations has been defeated already in the same meeting/session.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:26 PM, Drake Savory said:

Even if that is the case, would a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted to reopen the nominations be in order if the Motion to Suspend the Rules to reopen the nominations has been defeated already in the same meeting/session.

It's hard to know exactly what you mean.  The motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted cannot be used to amend something previously defeated.

[Drake Savory]

Election Rule was passed saying nominations close March 1st.  Someone wants to reopen nominations and their preferred method is to Suspend the Rules but it seams that if that is defeated they could Amend the Rule and move to reopen nominations under 31:6. 

I guess my question is can a person make different motions to accomplish the same thing in the same meeting.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:12 PM, Bruce Lages said:

Even if the organization has a rule that specifies a nomination period and that period seems to be over?

I'd need to see the exact language before I'd rule it out.  My instinct is to err on the side of more nominations.

[Richard Brown]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:11 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

I'd need to see the exact language before I'd rule it out.  My instinct is to err on the side of more nominations.

I agree.  I tend to believe, based on what we have been told, that nominations can be re-opened without suspending the rules.  However, if the rule is worded in such a way that it appears to be a qualification for being nominated or holding office, then it is a rule regarding qualifications for holding office and cannot be suspended.  It depends on the exact wording of the rule and might be a matter of bylaws interpretation.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/15/2022 at 6:12 PM, Bruce Lages said:

Even if the organization has a rule that specifies a nomination period and that period seems to be over?

Based on the facts presented here, yes, I think so. The fact that a rule provides for a time at which nominations are closed does not, in and of itself, suggest that nominations cannot be reopened. It is certainly conceivable that a particular rule may be worded in such a way that it prohibits reopening nominations without suspending the rules (or even more rarely, prohibit reopening nominations altogether), but that does not appear to be the case here.

On 3/15/2022 at 6:49 PM, Drake Savory said:

Election Rule was passed saying nominations close March 1st.  Someone wants to reopen nominations and their preferred method is to Suspend the Rules but it seams that if that is defeated they could Amend the Rule and move to reopen nominations under 31:6. 

I guess my question is can a person make different motions to accomplish the same thing in the same meeting.

I would first reiterate again that the member should simply move to Reopen Nominations in the first place, the member's preferences notwithstanding. If the member moves to Suspend the Rules, the chair should instead suggest the member move to Reopen Nominations. The motion Suspend the Rules, as the name suggests, is used to do something you can't do without violating one or more of the assembly's rules.

"When an assembly wishes to do something during a meeting that it cannot do without violating one or more of its regular rules, it can adopt a motion to Suspend the Rules interfering with the proposed action—provided that the proposal is not in conflict with the organization’s bylaws (or constitution), with local, state, or national law prescribing procedural rules applicable to the organization or assembly, or with a fundamental principle of parliamentary law." RONR (12th ed.) 25:1

But the member's desired objective (reopening nominations) can be accomplished without suspending any rules. Therefore, the appropriate course of action is to move to Reopen Nominations.

If for some reason the member and the chair erroneously process the motion to Suspend the Rules, and they later realize the correct procedure, then in my opinion, the motion to Reopen Nominations is in order.

As to the general question of "can a person make different motions to accomplish the same thing in the same meeting," I don't think this has a simple answer, and it will depend upon the specific circumstances. The general rules pertaining to renewal of motions are found in RONR (12th ed.) Section 38.

Edited March 16, 2022 at 12:27 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:49 PM, Drake Savory said:

Election Rule was passed saying nominations close March 1st.  Someone wants to reopen nominations and their preferred method is to Suspend the Rules but it seams that if that is defeated they could Amend the Rule and move to reopen nominations under 31:6. 

I guess my question is can a person make different motions to accomplish the same thing in the same meeting.

If you have a choice, and it appears you do, I would recommend moving to reopen nominations first.  If you start with a suspension of the rules, you are, in effect, admitting that there is a rule, and that it would interfere with reopening nominations.  If that fails, you are in a rather weak position to then make the motion that you have tacitly admitted is not in order and which the assembly is unwilling to suspend.

The motion to reopen nominations has a lower threshold for adoption, and so it has a better chance of success.  If it fails, then a suspension of the rules would likely be a waste of time.  If reopening is ruled out of order, I would first try to appeal that ruling, and if the appeal fails, then move to suspend the rule under which it was ruled out of order, assuming that is a suspendible rule, which I believe it is, based on what we know so far.

[Drake Savory]

For clarification, we a closely associated with a much larger organization that uses a bastardized version of RONR so that members in my organization see things the other organization does like "voting by acclaimation" and using personal privilege to make announcements and think they are in RONR.  One of the other organization's rules is in order to nominate after the period is closed the motion is to Suspend the Rules to nominate the person.  So naturally the members in my organization think that that is how it done.

So I my take away from this thread is yes I can make multiple motions to accomplish the same goal as long as they are different motions e.g. Suspend the Rules, Amend Something Previously Adopted, and a main motion

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/16/2022 at 7:30 PM, Drake Savory said:

members ... see things ... like "voting by acclaimation" and using personal privilege to make announcements and think they are in RONR. 

Well, they kind of are.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 3/16/2022 at 7:30 PM, Drake Savory said:

my take away from this thread is yes I can make multiple motions to accomplish the same goal as long as they are different motions e.g. Suspend the Rules, Amend Something Previously Adopted, and a main motion

The question is not necessarily what the ultimate goal is, but rather what each motion actually accomplishes.

Rescinding a rule that prevents further nominations does not by itself reopen the nominations.

Amend Something Previously Adopted *is* a main motion. But it is true that it can be applied to another main motion that was adopted earlier in the same session, as an exception to the general principle that the same or substantially the same question cannot be brought before the assembly again during that time.