Agenda Item Removal

[pippenger]

Chair of the Budget Committee placed the county budget on the Full county commission agenda.  Chair of the Budget Committee did not like the proposed budget that was approved in the committee and at the Full county commission meeting - announced that he was pulling the agenda item from the agenda - the committee chair did this at the point that the Commission chairman announced the budget item on the agenda.  The question is - did the committee chair have the right to withdraw the agenda item or was it the property of the full commission once it was placed on the agenda ?

[Gary Novosielski]

Of course not.

 

[Rob Elsman]

When the chairman of a committee does not agree with a report that has been adopted by the committee, the committee should appoint another member of the committee who does agree with the report to present the report to the committee's parent body.  This avoids the awkward situations where 1) a reporting member who does not agree with the committee's report has to make a motion to adopt the recommendation contained in the report on behalf of the committee, and 2) the reporting member, having preference in recognition, opens the debate speaking on his own behalf in opposition to the very report that he presented.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/2/2022 at 1:56 PM, Rob Elsman said:

2) the reporting member, having preference in recognition, opens the debate speaking on his own behalf in opposition to the very report that he presented.

I would not think he would be permitted to speak in debate against a motion he himself made.

[Rob Elsman]

Mr. Novosielski, the motion to adopt the recommendations contained in a committee's report is made on behalf of the committee, not on behalf of the reporting member.  In my opinion, if such an obviously awkward situation were to arise (and I hope it would not), the reporting member can speak in opposition to any or all of the recommendations on his own behalf without violating the rule that prohibits a member from speaking in debate against his own motion, RONR (12th ed.) 43:25.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/2/2022 at 2:23 PM, Rob Elsman said:

Mr. Novosielski, the motion to adopt the recommendations contained in a committee's report is made on behalf of the committee, not on behalf of the reporting member.  In my opinion, if such an obviously awkward situation were to arise (and I hope it would not), the reporting member can speak in opposition to any or all of the recommendations on his own behalf without violating the rule that prohibits a member from speaking in debate against his own motion, RONR (12th ed.) 43:25.

The citation contains the rule but I don't see where the exception is noted. 🙂

[Rob Elsman]

I have provided you the reason why the rule does not apply.

[Richard Brown]

Answer deleted. I misread the Question and my answer was therefore not on point.

Edited July 2, 2022 at 10:53 PM by Richard Brown
I deleted my answer because I misread the question and my answer was not on point

[Atul Kapur]

On 7/2/2022 at 4:16 PM, Rob Elsman said:

I have provided you the reason why the rule does not apply.

Well, you have given your rationale why a violation of the rule may be justified. Whether the member is moving the motion on behalf of the committee or on their own initiative, it is that member who is making the motion; hence it is that member's motion and the rule about speaking against one's own motion applies (43:25).

I agree that this situation is best avoided, as advised in 51:8 and envisioned in 51:12.

@pippenger, was the Budget committee chair the only member of the committee who is a member of the commission?

Edited July 2, 2022 at 11:27 PM by Atul Kapur

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/2/2022 at 4:16 PM, Rob Elsman said:

I have provided you the reason why the rule does not apply.

You may well be correct, but It think the best course of action is the one you recommended first: appoint a different member to report.

[Tapestry]

If a different member gave the report, would this then open an opportunity for the chair of the committee, who is opposed to the committee report, to give a "minority report"?

[Guest Pip]

The Budget Committee under state law (TN - U.S.A.) requires the budget committee to consist of the members of the County Commission - so all members of the budget committee are also on the commission.  Also I do not know if this maters in this situation, but all items on the county commission agenda are actionable (per state law) and the budget committee does not have to be the entity to present the budget - it can actually be any member of the legislative body (as long as it is a balanced budget not requiring funding to balance from the undesignated / unrestricted general fund balance.

[pippenger]

Sorry on Guest Post - I thought I was signed in  :  The Budget Committee under state law (TN - U.S.A.) requires the budget committee to consist of the members of the County Commission - so all members of the budget committee are also on the commission.  Also I do not know if this maters in this situation, but all items on the county commission agenda are actionable (per state law) and the budget committee does not have to be the entity to present the budget - it can actually be any member of the legislative body (as long as it is a balanced budget not requiring funding to balance from the undesignated / unrestricted general fund balance.

[Atul Kapur]

Sounds like you have answered your question.

[Tomm]

Just inquiring here, but aren't agenda's unofficial until they are approved? Why wasn't or wouldn't a motion to amend the agenda be the first correct course of action by the Chair of the Budget Committee? He is, after all, just another member of the assembly! 

[pippenger]

True, Agendas by normal standards have to Approved (adopted?) but in the great state of Tennessee - County Legislative Body's are set to receive the business agenda 4 days prior to the meeting and all items put on the agenda are sponsored by the County Executive or a member of the body.  There is no adoption of the agenda (that is set by state law).  Roberts Rules only apply to a meeting action  where there is not a standing state law in place, such as no discussion  or discussion / action on an agenda item, because state law already applies that all items on an agenda for counties are actionable.  This makes life confusing, it is like balancing 2 sets of rules.  We even have state law in some cases that specifically appoints the body chair or County Executive to a committee as an ex officio- member in some cases with and other cases without voting rights on that board.

 

[Josh Martin]

On 7/2/2022 at 8:41 PM, Tapestry said:

If a different member gave the report, would this then open an opportunity for the chair of the committee, who is opposed to the committee report, to give a "minority report"?

Under the rules in RONR, a member (or group of members) on a committee who disagree with the report of the committee may request permission to submit a minority report. This request requires unanimous consent or a majority vote to grant. The rules on this matter are the same regardless of who the reporting member is and regardless of whether the chair is in the minority.

"When the minority of a committee wishes to make a formal presentation of its views, it is customary, unless the assembly refuses permission, to receive its report immediately after the report of the committee. In such a case, the member presenting the committee report can properly notify the assembly that the minority wishes to submit its views in a separate report. As soon as the chair has stated the appropriate question on the committee report, he calls for the minority presentation unless someone objects, in which case he puts the question on the report’s being received. A majority vote is required to receive a minority report; the question is undebatable." RONR (12th ed.) 51:69

Since it appears at this point, however, that this is some sort of public body which will be subject to customized procedures in its own rules and in applicable law, I can't say whether this is correct for the OP's organization.

Additionally, whether or not the request to formally present the minority report is granted, the members of the committee in the minority are free to express their views in debate.

On 7/1/2022 at 8:59 PM, pippenger said:

Chair of the Budget Committee placed the county budget on the Full county commission agenda.  Chair of the Budget Committee did not like the proposed budget that was approved in the committee and at the Full county commission meeting - announced that he was pulling the agenda item from the agenda - the committee chair did this at the point that the Commission chairman announced the budget item on the agenda.  The question is - did the committee chair have the right to withdraw the agenda item or was it the property of the full commission once it was placed on the agenda ?

Under the rules in RONR, an individual member does not have the authority to pull an item from an agenda, even if that person is the chair of the committee making the recommendation. Whether this is the case under the County Commission's rules or under Tennessee law is not a question this forum can answer.

On 7/2/2022 at 11:38 PM, Tomm said:

Just inquiring here, but aren't agenda's unofficial until they are approved? Why wasn't or wouldn't a motion to amend the agenda be the first correct course of action by the Chair of the Budget Committee? He is, after all, just another member of the assembly! 

This is all correct under RONR, but open meeting laws quite frequently require agendas for public bodies to be published some time in advance of the meeting (as appears to be the case here) and may limit the extent to which the agenda may be amended.

Edited July 3, 2022 at 04:05 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/3/2022 at 12:38 AM, Tomm said:

Just inquiring here, but aren't agenda's unofficial until they are approved? Why wasn't or wouldn't a motion to amend the agenda be the first correct course of action by the Chair of the Budget Committee? He is, after all, just another member of the assembly! 

That's true if the rules in RONR apply, but I've run across public bodies for which it is not true.

[pippenger]

In the case of TN counties, (except metro forms of government - apparently)  there are presets in place such as all items are actionable * no discussion / action on agenda items ) and any item put on an agenda by a member or the county executive are automatically part of the adopted agenda

 

[Rob Elsman]

The county commission and all its inferior bodies will want to be scrupulous in complying with all statutory and regulatory rules or restrictions.  If there are questions about these, the commission's legal counsel should be able to provide assistance.