Rescind or Amend Something Previously Adopted

[Tomm]

Since these two motions are basically two forms of the same incidental motion can someone please explain why one motion would be used over the use of the other.

Seems to me that you can only use Rescind if something was previously adopted? You can't Rescind a motion that failed because wouldn't that be attempting to change the outcome of a vote that can, basically, only be done immediately following the vote?

[Dan Honemann]

On 12/8/2022 at 7:28 PM, Tomm said:

Since these two motions are basically two forms of the same incidental motion can someone please explain why one motion would be used over the use of the other.

Seems to me that you can only use Rescind if something was previously adopted? You can't Rescind a motion that failed because wouldn't that be attempting to change the outcome of a vote that can, basically, only be done immediately following the vote?

You don't see the difference between amending something previously adopted and rescinding it?

[Tomm]

On 12/8/2022 at 5:41 PM, Dan Honemann said:

You don't see the difference between amending something previously adopted and rescinding it?

What I see is Rescind will make a previous motion disappear as if it never happened. Amending will simply change the motion!

Our Board will attempt to Rescind a motion that failed at the last meeting but what they're really trying to do is nullify the "NO" vote that caused a proposed budget to fail. They were first going to Reconsider the motion but when they figured out that that was not going to fly they're attempting to come back with Rescind!

I know....the board needs an education on RONR!  

[Richard Brown]

You can’t rescind or amend something that was never adopted!  It’s in the actual name of the motion: amend or rescind  something PREVIOUSLY ADOPTED. A motion that failed to be adopted was never adopted! there is nothing to rescind or amend.

Edited December 9, 2022 at 12:57 AM by Richard Brown
Corrected typo

[Richard Brown]

If they want to “nullify“ the no vote from the previous meeting all they do is renew the motion – make the motion again just as  if it had never been made.  There is nothing to rescind or amend.

[Dan Honemann]

Using exclamation marks at the end of just about every sentence must be contagious.  🙂

[Josh Martin]

On 12/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, Tomm said:

Since these two motions are basically two forms of the same incidental motion can someone please explain why one motion would be used over the use of the other.

You would use Rescind if you wish to get rid of the original motion in its entirety, while you would use Amend Something Previously Adopted if you wish to amend the original motion.

"The effect of Rescind is to strike out an entire main motion, resolution, order, or rule that has been adopted at some previous time. Amend Something Previously Adopted is the motion that can be used if it is desired to change only a part of the text, or to substitute a different version." RONR (12th ed.) 35:1

Also, I believe you meant to say that these are two forms of the same incidental main motion, not incidental motion.

On 12/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, Tomm said:

Seems to me that you can only use Rescind if something was previously adopted?

Yes, this is correct. Amend Something Previously Adopted (as the name suggests) can also only be used in regard to a motion which was previously adopted.

"Can be applied to anything (e.g., bylaw, rule, policy, decision, or choice) which has continuing force and effect and which was made or created at any time or times as the result of the adoption of one or more main motions." RONR (12th ed.) 35:2, emphasis in original

On 12/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, Tomm said:

You can't Rescind a motion that failed because wouldn't that be attempting to change the outcome of a vote that can, basically, only be done immediately following the vote?

You can't rescind a motion that failed because there is nothing to rescind.

If it is desired to address a motion which failed, this can be done through other means:

• By a motion to Reconsider, but only within strict time limits. (Although not quite as strict as "immediately following the vote.")
• By "renewing" the motion (that is, by simply making the motion again) at a future meeting.

On 12/8/2022 at 6:51 PM, Tomm said:

What I see is Rescind will make a previous motion disappear as if it never happened. Amending will simply change the motion!

I think it goes a bit too far to suggest that Rescind makes it as if the previous motion "never happened," but you have the right idea.

On 12/8/2022 at 6:51 PM, Tomm said:

Our Board will attempt to Rescind a motion that failed at the last meeting but what they're really trying to do is nullify the "NO" vote that caused a proposed budget to fail. They were first going to Reconsider the motion but when they figured out that that was not going to fly they're attempting to come back with Rescind!

This is not in order. The motion to Rescind may not be applied to a motion which was defeated.

In an ordinary society, there would be no need for all these attempted shenanigans, because the motion could simply be renewed at the next meeting. As I recall, however, your board has a "three readings" rule, which complicates that. As a consequence, the proper course of action if the board wishes to take this up faster than the "three readings" rule would allow is to either suspend that rule (if the rule allows for that) or amend the rule.

Edited December 9, 2022 at 02:09 AM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 12/8/2022 at 7:51 PM, Tomm said:

What I see is Rescind will make a previous motion disappear as if it never happened. Amending will simply change the motion!

Our Board will attempt to Rescind a motion that failed at the last meeting but what they're really trying to do is nullify the "NO" vote that caused a proposed budget to fail. They were first going to Reconsider the motion but when they figured out that that was not going to fly they're attempting to come back with Rescind!

I know....the board needs an education on RONR!  

As listed in §35, these are actually two very slightly different motions, one is Repeal, and the other is Amend Something Previously Adopted.  The rules are exactly the same for both, so both only apply to things already adopted.  The only effective difference is that ASPA allows any of the standard forms of amendment to be applied to the language of the motion, whereas Rescind is a special case amendment that simply strikes all the words.

I don't agree that rescision makes things the same as if it had never happened.  It is quite possible that a motion established a practice that was then in effect for years before the motion was rescinded.  But the motion was in full force and effect from the time it was passed until it was rescinded.  Rescision does not erase the motion, it merely sets a time after which it is no longer in effect.

Edited December 9, 2022 at 03:52 AM by Gary Novosielski

[George Mervosh]

On 12/8/2022 at 7:59 PM, Dan Honemann said:

Using exclamation marks at the end of just about every sentence must be contagious.  🙂

If I recall correctly, the only time it is acceptable is with the sentence -  Go Army, Beat Navy!   Sound right?

[Dan Honemann]

On 12/9/2022 at 9:10 AM, George Mervosh said:

If I recall correctly, the only time it is acceptable is with the sentence -  Go Army, Beat Navy!   Sound right?

Absolutely correct.

[Tomm]

Incorrect...Go Navy!!!!!!!!