Raising Dues

[Guest Flamingo]

During our meeting the upcoming years budget was approved. After that vote there was a motion made to raise our dues $5.00. After a very lengthy discussion the motion was approved.

now the board is saying that the vote was improper because we did not receive prior notice of wanting to raise the dues. Which they say is 15 or 30 days.

There is nothing in our by laws requiring prior notice so they say is a Robert’s rule and since it’s not addressed in our bylaws we revert to Robert’s.

I haven’t been able to find that rule and also do the by laws need to state something about referring to Robert’s. They insist that is just the way it is.

[Rob Elsman]

If the bylaws are altogether silent about dues, a motion to change the previously adopted dues is a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted, which requires a majority vote for adoption if previous notice has been properly given; otherwise, its adoption requires either a two-thirds vote or the vote of the majority of the membership. See RONR (12th ed.) 35:2, Standard Descriptive Characteristic 7.

[Richard Brown]

In what document is the amount of your dues established? Is it in the bylaws? Standing rules? An ordinary motion?
 

Also, do your bylaws say anything at all about dues?  If the bylaws make no mention whatsoever of dues, then,  Per the rules in RONR, you cannot establish dues without amending the bylaws. Dues must be authorized in the bylaws, even if the bylaws provide that dues can be set by motion, standing rule, etc.

[Rob Elsman]

I disagree that RONR (12th ed.) requires dues to be included in the bylaws if they are to be assessed at all. RONR (12th ed.) 56:19 is a recommendation more than a rule. The rights and responsibilities of members are usually intended to be stable over time, so it is right to say that the bylaws "should also state" the financial obligations of members.

However, it seems that the society intended by the original poster has decided—rightly or wrongly—to assess dues without a provision in the bylaws. In my opinion, this leaves the superior body of the society free to assess dues by way of an ordinary main motion. In this case, the society apparently adopted dues this way originally, so any change to the amount can be made by adopting another main motion of the form Amend Something Previously Adopted.

[Guest Standing rules]

The dues are in the standing rules. “Dues will be $10.00 and assessed annually October 1-September 30”. In bylaws as “dues will be assessed annually according to the standing rules”.

Since the board is determined to over rule the vote, what would be the “legal” reason for doing so?

Because the budget wasn’t amended properly?

[Guest Notice]

What is notice “properly given”? 

[Rob Elsman]

Carefully read my previous reply. Nothing in RONR (12th ed.) requires that previous notice be given for adoption of a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted. The proper giving of previous notice may make adoption easier, but adoption is still possible if previous notice has not been given.

Therefore, the announcement that the motion was adopted stands, since a Point of Order was not apparently made immediately thereafter. 

[Guest Money]

The board is saying you have to give notice of XX days to change the dues. (Which they don’t know how many days that is)

it isn’t in our by laws or standing rules so they say that it is in Robert’s so we have to give notice. I’m trying to find that rule, if it exists.

[Guest Notice to raise dues]

The board is saying we had to give notice that we were going to vote to raise dues. (They don’t know how many days notice that is.)

Im trying to find that rule in Robert’s because it is not addressed in our by laws or standing rules.

is there a rule requiring a 30 day notice that you are going to vote on raising dues?

[Joshua Katz]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:11 AM, Guest Money said:

it isn’t in our by laws or standing rules so they say that it is in Robert’s so we have to give notice. I’m trying to find that rule, if it exists.

Stop trying and ask them for the page number. They're the ones saying it's in there.

[Joshua Katz]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:16 AM, Guest Notice to raise dues said:

is there a rule requiring a 30 day notice that you are going to vote on raising dues?

Not in RONR.

[Richard Brown]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:13 AM, Rob Elsman said:

I disagree that RONR (12th ed.) requires dues to be included in the bylaws if they are to be assessed at all.

I disagree.  If payment of dues is required, it is a qualification for membership that must be in the bylaws.  56:19 RONR (12th ed.).

You and Guest Flamingo might refer to these fairly recent threads, all of which are to the effect that a requirement of dues must be in the bylaws.  The bylaws do not have to specify the amount of dues or details for payment thereof.... that can be done via standing rules.  But, the authorization to collect dues as a condition of membership must be in the bylaws.  There are many other similar threads.  This is just a sampling of recent threads.

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/40740-dues-in-standing-rule/

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/38332-standing-rules/

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/38673-dues-in-standing-rules/

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/36358-dues/

 

 

 

[Rob Elsman]

What I and other readers of this forum are looking for is a reference in (RONR 12th ed.) that says that there must be a provision in the governing documents in order for dues to be assessed.  However much the book says that such a provision "should be stated" (and rightly so!) in the bylaws, I do not think such a verb form suggests a binding rule.  The society discussed in this thread has adopted a rule that specifically says that "...dues will be assessed annually according to the standing rules."  Is this rule null and void?  I do not think so.

[Weldon Merritt]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:59 PM, Rob Elsman said:

What I and other readers of this forum are looking for is a reference in (RONR 12th ed.) that says that there must be a provision in the governing documents in order for dues to be assessed.  However much the book says that such a provision "should be stated" (and rightly so!) in the bylaws, I do not think such a verb form suggests a binding rule.  The society discussed in this thread has adopted a rule that specifically says that "...dues will be assessed annually according to the standing rules."  Is this rule null and void?  I do not think so.

The verb "should" in 56:19 is referring to where in the bylaws the dues provision should be place, not whether it must be in them. I agree with Mr. Brown that payment of dues is a condition of membership, and therefore must be authorized somewhere in the bylaws, just as any other condition of membership must be. I agree that the specific amount and ither payment details may be in the steading rules. 

[Rob Elsman]

So, Mr. Merritt, is the rule of the organization discussed in this thread null and void?

[Gary Novosielski]

As I understand it, an annual dues provision exists in the bylaws, and refers to the standing rules to set the amount.  I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Rob Elsman]

Well, additional facts provided make it clear that the assessment of dues is authorized in the bylaws of the society mentioned by the original poster. The amount is to be provided in a "standing rule". Therefore, I stand by my previous reply that modifying the amount requires adoption of a motion, Amend Something Previously Adopted, which does not require previous notice. This being the case, a Point of Order about the announcement of the result of the vote had to have been raised more or less immediately afterward. It is much too late for the matter to be an issue. The motion was announced to have been adopted, and the meeting ended. The dues are raised $5.00.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:17 AM, Guest Standing rules said:

The dues are in the standing rules. “Dues will be $10.00 and assessed annually October 1-September 30”. In bylaws as “dues will be assessed annually according to the standing rules”.

On 3/27/2023 at 10:16 AM, Guest Notice to raise dues said:

The board is saying we had to give notice that we were going to vote to raise dues. (They don’t know how many days notice that is.)

Im trying to find that rule in Robert’s because it is not addressed in our by laws or standing rules.

is there a rule requiring a 30 day notice that you are going to vote on raising dues?

Based upon this information, the board's assertion that there "must" be notice of a motion to change the dues is incorrect. There is no rule in RONR which requires notice (30 days or otherwise) to change the dues.

The general rules pertaining to amending a standing rule, which would be applicable here, are that a standing rule may be amended by either of the following methods:

• If previous notice has been given, a majority vote is sufficient.
• If previous notice has not been given, then a 2/3 vote or a vote of a majority of the entire membership is required.

So it is not absolutely required to provide notice, but it helps. Previous notice may either be included in the call of the meeting or given at the previous regular meeting, provided that the next regular meeting is within a quarterly interval.

The rules on this matter may be found in RONR (12th ed.) 2:23, 35:2.

Edited March 27, 2023 at 08:37 PM by Josh Martin

[Weldon Merritt]

On 3/27/2023 at 1:21 PM, Rob Elsman said:

So, Mr. Merritt, is the rule of the organization discussed in this thread null and void?

As long as the bylaw's contain authorization for dues (as it seems they do in this instance(,I agree that adoption of the new rue is not null and void.. I.e., it is valid.

[Richard Brown]

I agree with Josh Martin and Weldon Merritt that the additional information provided by the original poster indicates that dues are authorized in the bylaws and the amount is established in the standing rules. Therefore, the amount of the dues may be changed by means of amending the  standing rule.  Previous notice is not necessarily required, as a standing Rue can be amended with a majority vote if notice is given or, if notice is not given, by 2/3 vote or the vote of a majority of the entire membership.