Mistake in RONR 47:28?

[puzzling]

Was puzzling with RONR 47:28.

If the president (at an angry or senior monent) says he is resigning. Is it possible for him to withdraw that resignation?  Or is there even a need for the assembly to accept it?

47:28 seems to say no, as soon as he resigns the vice president becomes president. 

That would mean that at that point there is a new president and there is nothing to withdraw or accept.

Am I right in this or am i missing something?

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 8/17/2023 at 3:37 AM, puzzling said:

Was puzzling with RONR 47:28.

If the president (at an angry or senior monent) says he is resigning. Is it possible for him to withdraw that resignation?  Or is there even a need for the assembly to accept it?

47:28 seems to say no, as soon as he resigns the vice president becomes president. 

That would mean that at that point there is a new president and there is nothing to withdraw or accept.

Am I right in this or am i missing something?

RONR 47:28 says:

In case of the president's resignation, death, or removal, the vice-president automatically becomes president for the remainder of the term, unless the bylaws expressly provide otherwise for filling a vacancy in the office of president (see also 56:32).

It doesn't say "in case of the president's submission of a resignation"; it says "in case of the president's resignation". The procedure for resignation is discussed in §32, which states:

"By submitting a resignation, the member is, in effect, requesting to be excused from a duty. The chair, on reading or announcing the resignation, can assume a motion “that the resignation be accepted.”
"The duties of a position must not be abandoned until a resignation has been accepted and becomes effective, or at least until there has been a reasonable opportunity for it to be accepted." RONR (12th ed.) 32:5–6.

I suppose it might be helpful if 47:28 included a reference to §32.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/17/2023 at 2:37 AM, puzzling said:

If the president (at an angry or senior monent) says he is resigning. Is it possible for him to withdraw that resignation?

It depends on what (if anything) has been done in regard to the resignation. Prior to the question on accepting the resignation being stated by the chair, the resignation may be withdrawn unilaterally. After the question on accepting the resignation has been stated, but before the resignation has actually been accepted, the resignation may be withdrawn only with the consent of the assembly. After the resignation has been accepted, it may not be withdrawn. See FAQ #18.

On 8/17/2023 at 2:37 AM, puzzling said:

Or is there even a need for the assembly to accept it?

A resignation from office is not effective until it is accepted by the assembly.

On 8/17/2023 at 2:37 AM, puzzling said:

47:28 seems to say no, as soon as he resigns the vice president becomes president. 

The Vice President does not become President until the resignation becomes effective.

Edited August 17, 2023 at 01:38 PM by Josh Martin

[Mike Phillips]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:37 AM, Josh Martin said:

A resignation from office is not effective until it is accepted by the assembly.

I’ve always wondered what happens if the resignation is not accepted.

Edited August 26, 2023 at 05:17 AM by Mike Phillips

[Rob Elsman]

If the officer serves as a volunteer, the rejection of his resignation discharges him from any further obligation to perform the duties of the office; and, the society is free to proceed with a disciplinary operation related to the reason for the rejection and depose him from office.

However, if the officer is duty-bound to serve as a condition of membership in the society, his abandonment of the office after the rejection of his resignation may result in a disciplinary proceeding, even ending with his expulsion from the society.

[Gary Novosielski]

n/a

 

Edited August 26, 2023 at 03:46 PM by Gary Novosielski
wrong place

[Atul Kapur]

On 8/26/2023 at 11:27 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

I agree on the grounds that the specific rule trumps the general rule.

And as a practical matter, if there are genuine challenges to the seating of particular delegates, and the intent is to deal with these disputes on their merit, it is going to be more fruitful to work through them one delegation at a time.  Even if proposing an amendment in the nature of a substitute were allowed (hypothetically) a scattergun approach to a dozen different delegates in several different delegations is quite likely to be voted down anyway, since  nearly everyone will find something in there to dislike.  So considering a wide ranging substitute is likely to be a large waste of time.

Was this post meant to be a reply to this thread?

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/42293-credentials-committee-minority-report/

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/26/2023 at 11:34 AM, Atul Kapur said:

Was this post meant to be a reply to this thread?

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/42293-credentials-committee-minority-report/

I suspect so.  I should not have skipped that second cup of coffee.  Thanks.

Now to figure out how to move it.

Edited August 26, 2023 at 03:46 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Drake Savory]

If the President moves to be Excused from Duty (aka resigns), would the Vice-President be the one in the chair until the motion is disposed of?

[puzzling]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:27 AM, Drake Savory said:

If the President moves to be Excused from Duty (aka resigns), would the Vice-President be the one in the chair until the motion is disposed of?

I think to uphold the impartiality of the chair it would be good that the vice president is been given the chair (so that the soon ex-president,  can engage in debate)

But i don't know about a rule that prescribes it.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/7/2023 at 10:59 AM, puzzling said:

I think to uphold the impartiality of the chair it would be good that the vice president is been given the chair (so that the soon ex-president,  can engage in debate)

But i don't know about a rule that prescribes it.

I tend to think that it's not required.  The fact that the chair is making motions suggests that you're using Small Board Rules, where the rules of formality and impartiality of the chair are relaxed.  Also, while this is unquestionably a motion that affects the chair and no one else, I don't see the need to turn over the gavel unless there is an expectation of some debate or amendment, which is unusual.  In accepting a resignation, the most common amendment is to add, after the word "accepts", the words "with regret", which seldom gives rise to debate.

Just as it is proper for a chair to preside over his own (re)election, I think it's okay to put the question on his own resignation.

Stay tuned for other opinions.

[Josh Martin]

On 9/6/2023 at 10:27 PM, Drake Savory said:

If the President moves to be Excused from Duty (aka resigns), would the Vice-President be the one in the chair until the motion is disposed of?

I concur with Mr. Novosielski that, as a general matter, the President need not relinquish the chair for what is likely the very brief consideration of the President's resignation, even although a strict reading of 47:10 may suggest this to be the case.

"Whenever a motion is made that refers only to the presiding officer in a capacity not shared in common with other members, or that commends or censures him with others, he should turn the chair over to the vice-president or appropriate temporary occupant (see below) during the assembly's consideration of that motion, just as he would in a case where he wishes to take part in debate (see also 43:29–30). The chair, however, should not hesitate to put the question on a motion to elect officers or appoint delegates or a committee even if he is included." RONR (12th ed.) 47:10

It is conceivable the answer may be different in unusual circumstances, such as if the assembly begins (for example) discussing whether to accept the resignation or instead initiate disciplinary procedures.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/9/2023 at 7:01 AM, Josh Martin said:

I concur with Mr. Novosielski that, as a general matter, the President need not relinquish the chair for what is likely the very brief consideration of the President's resignation, even although a strict reading of 47:10 may suggest this to be the case.

"Whenever a motion is made that refers only to the presiding officer in a capacity not shared in common with other members, or that commends or censures him with others, he should turn the chair over to the vice-president or appropriate temporary occupant (see below) during the assembly's consideration of that motion, just as he would in a case where he wishes to take part in debate (see also 43:29–30). The chair, however, should not hesitate to put the question on a motion to elect officers or appoint delegates or a committee even if he is included." RONR (12th ed.) 47:10

It is conceivable the answer may be different in unusual circumstances, such as if the assembly begins (for example) discussing whether to accept the resignation or instead initiate disciplinary procedures.

Mr. Martin raises a good point.  If the president is resigning in the face of potential discipline, or other situation where there is a plausible chance that there will be opposition to the acceptance of the resignation, that changes things, and the president should probably leave the chair.

[Drake Savory]

On 9/7/2023 at 9:34 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

The fact that the chair is making motions suggests that you're using Small Board Rules, where the rules of formality and impartiality of the chair are relaxed. 

Not if it is made to the main body (and wouldn't the main body have to accept the resignation and not the Board?), hence my question.  Wouldn't the President have to relinquish the Chair in order to make their motion to be Relieved of Duty?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, Drake Savory said:

Not if it is made to the main body (and wouldn't the main body have to accept the resignation and not the Board?), hence my question.  Wouldn't the President have to relinquish the Chair in order to make their motion to be Relieved of Duty?

I didn't say it was a board, but rather an assembly using small board rules.

An appropriate time to tender a resignation would be during Reports of Officers.  Specifying an effective date would allow the resignation to be accepted as business arising out of a report, yet not cause an immediate vacancy.

[Josh Martin]

On 9/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, Drake Savory said:

Not if it is made to the main body (and wouldn't the main body have to accept the resignation and not the Board?)

The resignation must be submitted to the assembly with the authority to accept it. Unless the organization’s rules provide otherwise, that would be the same body with authority to fill the resulting vacancy. What assembly has this authority will depend on the organization’s rules.

On 9/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, Drake Savory said:

Wouldn't the President have to relinquish the Chair in order to make their motion to be Relieved of Duty?

Technically, yes, if the assembly in question does not use the small board rules, the President cannot make the motion to grant his request to be excused from a duty, unless the President first relinquishes the chair.

But I don’t think this is a major problem, because:

• The chair could assume the motion to grant the request.
• Another member could make the motion to grant the request.

Edited September 10, 2023 at 04:47 PM by Josh Martin