Preventing Committee Members from Voting

[Tomm]

Our bylaws require that all committees be chaired and co-chaired by a member of the board.

Some committee members believe that by allowing a Director to vote, it influences other members on the committee. They also believe that the Directors will have their opportunity to vote when the committee presents its report to the board. 

Question: Can a bylaw be written to prevent the chair and co-chair from voting in a committee meeting?

Part of me says "NO" because voting is one of the 4 pillars pertaining to the rights of membership.

Another part of me says "YES" because the bylaws supersede RONR.

Please advise...

[Atul Kapur]

Yes, because the bylaws not only supersede RONR but also may supersede general parliamentary law (which includes the "4 pillars"). 

Quote

an assembly or society is free to adopt any rules it may wish (even rules deviating from parliamentary law) provided that, in the procedure of adopting them, it conforms to parliamentary law or its own existing rules.

RONR (12th ed.) 2:2

 

I make no comment on the merits of the argument presented in your example.

[Josh Martin]

On 11/19/2023 at 12:38 AM, Tomm said:

Question: Can a bylaw be written to prevent the chair and co-chair from voting in a committee meeting?

The answer to "Can a rule in the bylaws do X?" is always yes, unless the rule conflicts with some even higher level rule (for example, applicable law).

On 11/19/2023 at 12:38 AM, Tomm said:

Part of me says "NO" because voting is one of the 4 pillars pertaining to the rights of membership.

Another part of me says "YES" because the bylaws supersede RONR.

The bylaws may override any rule in RONR, even those relating to the fundamental rights of membership.

Edited November 19, 2023 at 02:18 PM by Josh Martin

[Richard Brown]

On 11/19/2023 at 12:38 AM, Tomm said:

Question: Can a bylaw be written to prevent the chair and co-chair from voting in a committee meeting?

Part of me says "NO" because voting is one of the 4 pillars pertaining to the rights of membership.

Another part of me says "YES" because the bylaws supersede RONR.

As Dr. Kapur said, you can put just about anything you want to in your bylaws  They supersede RONR, the fundamental principles of parliamentary law and just about everything else except, maybe, statutory law. 

 

[Tomm]

On 11/19/2023 at 7:16 AM, Josh Martin said:

The bylaws may override any rule in RONR, even those relating to the fundamental rights of membership.

I suppose you could also accomplish it with a special rule of order as well?

[Richard Brown]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:23 AM, Tomm said:

I suppose you could also accomplish it with a special rule of order as well?

No, to do something like that would have to be in the bylaws as the right to vote is a fundamental right of membership.

Edited to add:  See, for example, 45:2 of RONR (12th ed.).  "It is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that each person who is a member of a deliberative assembly is entitled to one -- and only one -- vote on a question".  45:1 makes a similar statement and provides that a limitation on the right to vote must be in the bylaws.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 at 05:01 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Rob Elsman]

The proper rule-making authority could impose on the committees the "patterns of formality" that apply to larger bodies.

[Weldon Merritt]

On 11/19/2023 at 9:56 AM, Rob Elsman said:

The proper rule-making authority could impose on the committees the "patterns of formality" that apply to larger bodies.

I agree that this would accomplished the desired result. The chair cloud stile vote if it would would affect the result, but than would occur only after the others have voted. So the chair's vote would not influence the other committee members. 

[Rob Elsman]

It might be worth saying that it is debate, not voting, that is the ordinary step for influencing other members. 

[Richard Brown]

On 11/19/2023 at 11:28 AM, Rob Elsman said:

It might be worth saying that it is debate, not voting, that is the ordinary step for influencing other members.

Well, perhaps it SHOULD be the debate that influences other members as to how to vote, but as a practical matter, I believe that HOW certain perceived "leaders" vote often has a great influence on how other members vote regardless of whether the perceived "leaders" spoke in debate.

[Tomm]

On 11/19/2023 at 9:56 AM, Rob Elsman said:

The proper rule-making authority could impose on the committees the "patterns of formality" that apply to larger bodies.

Could you please expand a little on what you're referring too with the term "patterns of formality."?

[Rob Elsman]

In larger bodies that function like large assemblies, the presiding officer has the least to say about the substance of the questions in order to maintain the appearance of impartiality. So, he does not participate in debate while in the chair, and he only joins in a non-secret vote when his vote will affect the result.

[Atul Kapur]

On 11/19/2023 at 11:56 AM, Rob Elsman said:

The proper rule-making authority could impose on the committees the "patterns of formality" that apply to larger bodies.

Except that would just apply to the chair, but not the "co-chair" (or the vice-chair).

[Rob Elsman]

Well, having "co-chairs" of a committee is more like having "no-chairs", since their failure to agree creates an impossible situation that will interfere with the functionality of the committee.

[Josh Martin]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:23 AM, Tomm said:

I suppose you could also accomplish it with a special rule of order as well?

No. Only a rule in the bylaws is sufficient to restrict the rights of membership. Since the bylaws provide that these persons are members of the committees, only amending the bylaws would be sufficient to remove them from the committee, or to deprive them of their rights as members.

Edited November 19, 2023 at 06:34 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:38 AM, Tomm said:

Our bylaws require that all committees be chaired and co-chaired by a member of the board.

Some committee members believe that by allowing a Director to vote, it influences other members on the committee. They also believe that the Directors will have their opportunity to vote when the committee presents its report to the board. 

Question: Can a bylaw be written to prevent the chair and co-chair from voting in a committee meeting?

Part of me says "NO" because voting is one of the 4 pillars pertaining to the rights of membership.

Another part of me says "YES" because the bylaws supersede RONR.

Please advise...

Yes you are free to put all manner of dreadful provisions in your bylaws, no matter how ill-advised, nor how absurd the argument for doing so may be.