Limits on Debate

[Tomm]

If the debate is kind of running off the rails and no member is saying anything about it or trying to stop it, can the Chair move to change the limits of debate or must he/she step aside from the chair to make that motion?

Or is there another way to handle the situation? 

[Rob Elsman]

What size and kind of body are we taking about here?

[Tomm]

On 11/23/2023 at 11:47 AM, Rob Elsman said:

What size and kind of body are we taking about here?

The upcoming annual membership meeting.

[Rob Elsman]

Thank you.

The chair should remain attentive and maintain an appearance that is welcoming.  And that is it.  He should neither relinquish the chair not make a motion from the chair.  When enough of the other members of the assembly decide that they have had enough, the motion will get made, seconded, and adopted in the regular way.  Meanwhile, the chair refrains from giving any appearance that he is bored or anxious to move on.

[Tomm]

Should the motion be to limit debate or to suspend the rules that allows for 2 speeches, 10 minutes each?

[Rob Elsman]

The proper form of the motion that gets put to a vote depends on what the assembly wants to accomplish.  Whatever motion of this nature gets put to a vote, a two-thirds vote will be necessary for adoption, because, as you suggest, the motion will have the effect of suspending the rules.

[Tomm]

Would I be generally correct that either a limit on debate or a suspension of the rules is basically similar in that they are not debatable or for the most part, not amendable? 

Seems there is no advantage to using one motion over the other?

[Rob Elsman]

The correct answer about whether the motion would be debatable depends on what motion is made and when.

[Richard Brown]

I would think you would want simply a motion to limit or to close debate. It does not need to be a motion to suspend the rules any more than such a motion to suspend the rules is needed when limiting debate pursuant to the speaking limits in RONR. The whole purpose of the motion to limit debate is to limit debate to something less than what the rules permit. 

[Josh Martin]

On 11/23/2023 at 12:10 PM, Tomm said:

If the debate is kind of running off the rails and no member is saying anything about it or trying to stop it, can the Chair move to change the limits of debate or must he/she step aside from the chair to make that motion?

Could you clarify what you mean by "running off the rails?" Is the debate in some manner deviating from the rules of debate, such as the rules pertaining to germaneness and decorum? Or is the debate just really long?

In any case, the presiding officer would need to step aside if the chair desires to make a motion to Limit Debate. But I concur with Mr. Elsman that the chair should avoid doing so. Some other member, of course, could make such a motion.

"If the presiding officer is a member of the society, he has—as an individual—the same rights in debate as any other member; but the impartiality required of the chair in an assembly precludes his exercising these rights while he is presiding. Normally, especially in a large body, he should have nothing to say on the merits of pending questions. On certain occasions—which should be extremely rare—the presiding officer may believe that a crucial factor relating to such a question has been overlooked and that his obligation as a member to call attention to the point outweighs his duty to preside at that time. To participate in debate, he must relinquish the chair; and in such a case he turns the chair over:

a) to the highest-ranking vice-president present who has not spoken on the question and does not decline on the grounds of wishing to speak on it; or
b) if no such vice-president is in the room, to some other member qualified as in (a), whom the chair designates (and who is assumed to receive the assembly's approval by unanimous consent unless member(s) then nominate other person(s), in which case the presiding officer's choice is also treated as a nominee and the matter is decided by vote).

The presiding officer who relinquished the chair then may not return to it until the pending main question has been disposed of, since he has shown himself to be a partisan as far as that particular matter is concerned. Indeed, unless a presiding officer is extremely sparing in leaving the chair to take part in debate, he may destroy members' confidence in the impartiality of his approach to the task of presiding." RONR (12th ed.) 43:29

On 11/23/2023 at 12:10 PM, Tomm said:

Or is there another way to handle the situation? 

If there is something else going on here besides the debate being really long, the chair could take steps to enforce the rules of debate.

If the debate is just really long, no, I don't see another solution to that situation besides a motion to Limit Debate or for the Previous Question.

On 11/23/2023 at 1:01 PM, Tomm said:

Should the motion be to limit debate or to suspend the rules that allows for 2 speeches, 10 minutes each?

It would be a motion to Limit Debate.

On 11/23/2023 at 1:10 PM, Tomm said:

Would I be generally correct that either a limit on debate or a suspension of the rules is basically similar in that they are not debatable or for the most part, not amendable? 

The subsidiary motion to Limit Debate is amendable and is not debatable. It is also the proper motion to use for this purpose.

On 11/23/2023 at 1:10 PM, Tomm said:

Seems there is no advantage to using one motion over the other?

There isn't a choice in this regard. The proper motion is the motion to Limit Debate.

You don't just make a motion to Suspend the Rules to do whatever. If there is a proper motion to accomplish the desired purpose, then use that motion.

[Atul Kapur]

On 11/23/2023 at 1:10 PM, Tomm said:

If the debate is kind of running off the rails and no member is saying anything about it or trying to stop it, can the Chair move to change the limits of debate or must he/she step aside from the chair to make that motion?

Or is there another way to handle the situation? 

Well, the chair is responsible to ensure that debate is germane to the topic.

A skilled chair can also use several tactics to assist the assembly to complete its business while still remaining impartial regarding the pending motion. For example, the chair can call for speakers who are of the contrary opinion to the previous speaker, in order to give them preference in recognition. If all speakers are on one side of the question, this is often a signal that the meeting is ready to make a decision.

[Tomm]

On 11/23/2023 at 12:42 PM, Josh Martin said:

Is the debate in some manner deviating from the rules of debate, such as the rules pertaining to germaneness and decorum? Or is the debate just really long?

Some members tend to grandstand and like to be argumentative and hear themselves talk. So yes, I suppose germaneness and decorum would be the appropriate action by the chair. 

[Rob Elsman]

It sounds more like the whole meeting is fraught with members "grandstanding". Maybe "grandstanding" is not quite the right word, but let's let that ride.

What I recommend is that someone make a main motion at the beginning of the meeting that speeches in debate be limited to, say, five minutes each for the remainder of the meeting.

Such a main motion requires a second; is debatable; is amendable; and requires a two-thirds vote for adoption.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/23/2023 at 1:10 PM, Tomm said:

If the debate is kind of running off the rails and no member is saying anything about it or trying Pto stop it, can the Chair move to change the limits of debate or must he/she step aside from the chair to make that motion?

Or is there another way to handle the situation? 

Presuming the chair is awake throughout this, he or she (etc.) should ensure that debate remains germane to the motion, and suppress any that is not.  If the chair is not doing his or her job, then someone should raise a relevant point of order.

If debate has become repetitive, and new points are not being made, the chair should ask, "Are you ready for the question?" in an encouraging tone.  If people are seeking the floor for a third speech they should not be recognized.  If debate therefore fizzles out, the chair should simply put the question.

[Josh Martin]

On 11/23/2023 at 1:53 PM, Tomm said:

Some members tend to grandstand and like to be argumentative and hear themselves talk. So yes, I suppose germaneness and decorum would be the appropriate action by the chair. 

I'm somewhat less certain. I do not think that any of these things, in and of themselves, violate germaneness or decorum.

In any event, the rules concerning these subjects can be found in RONR (12th ed.) 43:19-28, so you can review for yourself whether they are applicable to this situation.