Quorum lost before ballot result is announced

[Tomm]

Annual Membership Meeting:  What happens if while ballots are being counted in the back room, and no other business is taking place, members leave the meeting and a quorum no longer exists?

Is the vote counted, finalized and accepted or does the meeting immediately adjourn and the motion is required to be brought up again at a new meeting with a quorum being in attendance?

Edited February 29, 2024 at 04:28 AM by Shmuel Gerber
Edited the topic title

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 2/28/2024 at 4:54 PM, Tomm said:

Annual Membership Meeting:  What happens if while ballots are being counted in the back room, and no other business is taking place, members leave the meeting and a quorum no longer exists?

Is the vote counted, finalized and accepted or does the meeting immediately adjourn and the motion is required to be brought up again at a new meeting with a quorum being in attendance?

See RONR (12th ed.) 21:6(1)n5. 

[Gary Novosielski]

Since the group of tellers is in the nature of a committee, the counting would continue and the Tellers's Report would be drafted and finalized.  It could not be reported to the assembly until a quorum is present.

Whether it would be a new meeting or not depends on what happens in the meantime.  The assembly might recess until the count was complete, especially if there was reason to believe that a quorum could be reëstablished, such as if members had just stepped out for a smoke, or to go across the street for a sandwich.  The meeting could also adjourn to a future time when a quorum could be obtained, or receiving the report and announcing the result could be done at a completely new meeting.

[Josh Martin]

On 2/28/2024 at 3:54 PM, Tomm said:

Annual Membership Meeting:  What happens if while ballots are being counted in the back room, and no other business is taking place, members leave the meeting and a quorum no longer exists?

It depends. Do the members come back?

The counting of the ballots, in itself, does not require the presence of a quorum. But a quorum must be present at the time the results are presented to the assembly.

On 2/28/2024 at 3:54 PM, Tomm said:

Is the vote counted, finalized and accepted or does the meeting immediately adjourn and the motion is required to be brought up again at a new meeting with a quorum being in attendance?

So I take it the members do not come back.

No, the results of a ballot vote cannot be finalized in the absence of a quorum.

This doesn't the motion needs to be "brought up again." The process doesn't start all over. The results will have to be announced when a quorum is present, whether later during the same meeting, or at a later meeting.

Additionally, I would note that the absence of a quorum does not cause a meeting to "immediately adjourn." There are a handful of procedural actions which may be taken in the absence of a quorum.

[Wright Stuff]

Interesting. if the meeting is an annual meeting and quorum is lost before the results are announced, the results are not announced for a year? 

[Tomm]

On 2/28/2024 at 8:54 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Interesting. if the meeting is an annual meeting and quorum is lost before the results are announced, the results are not announced for a year? 

No. The bylaws require that the Minutes must be approved by 3 officers of the board within 2 weeks and posted.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 2/28/2024 at 10:54 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Interesting. if the meeting is an annual meeting and quorum is lost before the results are announced, the results are not announced for a year? 

 

On 2/28/2024 at 11:05 PM, Tomm said:

No. The bylaws require that the Minutes must be approved by 3 officers of the board within 2 weeks and posted.

What does the approval of the minutes have to do with the price of tea in China (or the proper announcement of the ballot vote)?

[Tomm]

On 2/28/2024 at 9:27 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

What does the approval of the minutes have to do with the price of tea in China (or the proper announcement of the ballot vote)?

The approval and posting of the minutes within 2 weeks answered Wright Stuff's concern about having to wait an entire year to learn of the results.

[Atul Kapur]

On 2/28/2024 at 10:54 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Interesting. if the meeting is an annual meeting and quorum is lost before the results are announced, the results are not announced for a year? 

That's one reason why the meeting should Fix a time to which to adjourn.

[Dan Honemann]

On 2/28/2024 at 11:40 PM, Tomm said:

The approval and posting of the minutes within 2 weeks answered Wright Stuff's concern about having to wait an entire year to learn of the results.

No it doesn't.  Only the chair, at a regular or properly called meeting, can announce the result of a vote, and until such time as this occurs, the result of the vote has yet to be determined.

[Tomm]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:15 AM, Dan Honemann said:

No it doesn't.  Only the chair, at a regular or properly called meeting, can announce the result of a vote, and until such time as this occurs, the result of the vote has yet to be determined.

Fair enough but, I think you would agree that the Minutes would at least disclose the fact of what occurred...the quorum was lost and the meeting fixed a time to adjourn?

I think that's what Wright Stuff was asking.

[Wright Stuff]

On 2/29/2024 at 9:21 AM, Tomm said:

I think that's what Wright Stuff was asking.

My question is, if quorum is lost at an annual convention and the result of the vote is not announced, when is it announced? Not every organization can Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn for an annual convention. Inquiring minds want to know. 

[Tomm]

On 2/29/2024 at 8:06 AM, Wright Stuff said:

My question is, if quorum is lost at an annual convention and the result of the vote is not announced, when is it announced? Not every organization can Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn for an annual convention. Inquiring minds want to know. 

Well...based on what I'm being told is that you will not learn the results of that vote until you can hold a meeting that has a quorum.

[Wright Stuff]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:10 AM, Tomm said:

Well...based on what I'm being told is that you will not learn the results of that vote until you can hold a meeting that has a quorum.

I think that's true, but some of our members have to travel five hours or more to attend a convention. They have to spend the night in a hotel. There is the cost of travel. It is not reasonable to conduct a second convention for the purpose of announcing the winner of the ballot vote. 

[Tomm]

On 2/29/2024 at 8:16 AM, Wright Stuff said:

It is not reasonable to conduct a second convention for the purpose of announcing the winner of the ballot vote. 

Then perhaps the chair should announce the fact that if members/delegates leave the meeting prior to the announcement of the results, the results will not be announced?

[Josh Martin]

On 2/29/2024 at 9:16 AM, Wright Stuff said:

I think that's true, but some of our members have to travel five hours or more to attend a convention. They have to spend the night in a hotel. There is the cost of travel. It is not reasonable to conduct a second convention for the purpose of announcing the winner of the ballot vote. 

The organization has two options in this matter:

• Make sure to not lose a quorum until the results are announced.
• Adopt rules authorizing the board to address this matter.

I would note that the reason for this rule is because "announcing the winner of the ballot vote" is not necessarily a formality.

"Because the voting body itself is the ultimate judge of election disputes, only that body has the authority to resolve them in the absence of a bylaw or special rule of order that specifically grants another body that authority. Thus, for example, when an election has been conducted at a membership meeting or in a convention of delegates, an executive board, even one that is given full power and authority over the society's affairs between meetings of the body that conducted the election, may not entertain a point of order challenging, or direct a recount concerning, the announced election result. While an election dispute is immediately pending before the voting body, however, it may vote to refer the dispute to a committee or board to which it delegates power to resolve the dispute." RONR (12th ed.) 46:50

[Rob Elsman]

Why does @Wright Stuff keep mentioning a convention when @Tomm says the relevant body is an "Annual Membership Meeting".  The proper answer to Tomm's question may very well be a different answer than the answer that applies to a convention.

To answer Tomm's question (and disregarding Wright Stuff's intervention), the result of a vote must be announced at a quorate meeting.  If a quorum just can't be re-obtained, the assembly can fix the time to which to adjourn and adjourn.  In this case, the announcement of the vote will be made at the adjourned meeting immediately following the reading and approval of the minutes of the last meeting (assuming the adjourned meeting is held on a later day).

[Gary Novosielski]

n/a

Edited February 29, 2024 at 10:07 PM by Gary Novosielski