Nature of a rule of order?

[Guest Father Cadan]

Is the following in the nature of a rule of order (can it be suspended)?:

All new business and policy of this club shall be considered and shaped, first, by the board of directors for presentation to and approval by the club members at a regular or special club meeting.

[Father Cadan]

I wrote the above. I am not sure why it said I am a guest.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/6/2024 at 12:30 AM, Guest Father Cadan said:

Is the following in the nature of a rule of order (can it be suspended)?:

All new business and policy of this club shall be considered and shaped, first, by the board of directors for presentation to and approval by the club members at a regular or special club meeting.

That's an interesting and difficult question. I think additional context may be needed.

Could you clarify further what the historical meaning and interpretation of this rule has been in the society? Does this mean that all motions proposed by members are automatically referred to the board for consideration? Or does it mean that members can't make motions at all, and only the board can make proposals to the society? If the latter, are those proposals subject to amendment?

Edited March 6, 2024 at 07:45 PM by Josh Martin

[J. J.]

To the extent that rule required something to be done prior to the introduction of business, the rule is a rule in the nature of a rule of order.  A motion to, "suspend the rules and introduce a motion that was not 'considered and shaped, first, by the board of directors'" would be in order, IMO.  It deals with introducing business within a meeting. 

[George Mervosh]

On 3/6/2024 at 4:08 PM, J. J. said:

To the extent that rule required something to be done prior to the introduction of business, the rule is a rule in the nature of a rule of order.  A motion to, "suspend the rules and introduce a motion that was not 'considered and shaped, first, by the board of directors'" would be in order, IMO.  It deals with introducing business within a meeting. 

Like Mr. Martin, I'd like more information.  Depending on the answers to his questions, there may be something here in the nature of a rule protecting absentees.

[J. J.]

On 3/7/2024 at 8:29 AM, George Mervosh said:

Like Mr. Martin, I'd like more information.  Depending on the answers to his questions, there may be something here in the nature of a rule protecting absentees.

That is why I said, "to the extent." 

A rule requiring some other subordinate body to originate a main motion is a rule in the nature of a rule of order.  The part of the rule stating that a motion be "considered and shaped, first, by the board of directors," is suspendable.  A requirement, hypothetical at this point, that the board send out notice, is not suspendable. 

[Father Cadan]

On 3/6/2024 at 11:44 AM, Josh Martin said:

That's an interesting and difficult question. I think additional context may be needed.

Could you clarify further what the historical meaning and interpretation of this rule has been in the society? Does this mean that all motions proposed by members are automatically referred to the board for consideration? Or does it mean that members can't make motions at all, and only the board can make proposals to the society? If the latter, are those proposals subject to amendment?

The enforcement of this rule has been inconsistent. The interpretation generally changes when we get a new President. Sometimes it is like the rule doesn't exist. Sometimes, so long as both the Board and the membership approve the same item, the order of approval does not matter. Sometimes the item is required to be referred to the board. Sometimes it is claimed that this rule only applies to spending money. Once the board considers an item, the membership meeting is allowed to do whatever they wish, i.e. there is no scope. They would not allow a motion to refer to the board unless the board considered and shaped it first.

Inconsistency aside, I would answer that members cannot make motions at all. Once the Board considers the matter, the membership can make any motion on general category of the matter that the membership desires. The membership meetings do not take up the item as a recommendation from the board. The Board does not move to recommended X.

An alternative explanation: The Board makes a motion to donate $250 to Charity X. At the next membership meeting, motions to donate to charity X are allowed, so are motions to volunteer at a booth for the event the donation is for, or a motion on taking our bus to the event. The Board makes a motion to buy an Apple computer not to exceed $500. At the next membership meeting, motions to buy any computer for any price are allowed, since the board has considered buying a computer.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/7/2024 at 5:24 PM, Father Cadan said:

The enforcement of this rule has been inconsistent. The interpretation generally changes when we get a new President. Sometimes it is like the rule doesn't exist. Sometimes, so long as both the Board and the membership approve the same item, the order of approval does not matter. Sometimes the item is required to be referred to the board. Sometimes it is claimed that this rule only applies to spending money.

Well, I already thought this rule was ambiguous, and these facts seem to confirm that. The organization should amend the bylaws to clarify the rule.

On 3/7/2024 at 5:24 PM, Father Cadan said:

Once the board considers an item, the membership meeting is allowed to do whatever they wish, i.e. there is no scope. They would not allow a motion to refer to the board unless the board considered and shaped it first.

Inconsistency aside, I would answer that members cannot make motions at all. Once the Board considers the matter, the membership can make any motion on general category of the matter that the membership desires. The membership meetings do not take up the item as a recommendation from the board. The Board does not move to recommended X.

And when the board proposes these matters, are the members given previous notice of these proposals? Or do the members first learn of these proposals when they are presented at the meeting?

Edited March 8, 2024 at 02:43 AM by Josh Martin

[Father Cadan]

On 3/7/2024 at 6:42 PM, Josh Martin said:

And when the board proposes these matters, are the members given previous notice of these proposals? Or do the members first learn of these proposals when they are presented at the meeting?

I wouldn't say that notice is required, but is given sometimes in the form of the agenda going out before the meeting. The agenda though would just be the topic: 'Donation to X' or 'Event X'.  We have had special meetings of the board in the middle of our membership meeting to comply with the 'board first' requirement.

[J. J.]

On 3/7/2024 at 10:34 PM, Father Cadan said:

I wouldn't say that notice is required, but is given sometimes in the form of the agenda going out before the meeting. The agenda though would just be the topic: 'Donation to X' or 'Event X'.  We have had special meetings of the board in the middle of our membership meeting to comply with the 'board first' requirement.

As there is no requirement for notice, the rule is one that could be suspended.  Further the violation of it would require a timely point of order. 

[Josh Martin]

On 3/7/2024 at 9:34 PM, Father Cadan said:

I wouldn't say that notice is required, but is given sometimes in the form of the agenda going out before the meeting. The agenda though would just be the topic: 'Donation to X' or 'Event X'.  We have had special meetings of the board in the middle of our membership meeting to comply with the 'board first' requirement.

Thank you for these additional facts.

Based upon all of the above information, and to the extent your interpretation of the rule is correct, I believe the rule in question can be suspended.

But to be perfectly honest, I'm still not sure I fully understand this rule, so I am not sure my opinion counts for much. Ultimately, it will be up the organization to interpret its own rules. In the long run, it would be desirable to amend the bylaws for clarity.