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Steeves

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At the general membership meeting of the Dysfunctional Non Profit held May 14 at 2:00 pm in the Discipline Room to rescind the election of Moon Beam as Esteemed Executive Board Member and elect a new Esteemed Executive Board Member several things happened.

1) Other items were on the agenda of this special meeting.

​2) During the attempt to rescind several people spoke up, called points of order, which the parliamentarian dismissed stating the new bylaw recently adopted covered the topic.

New bylaw: The Executive Board is charged with the authority and responsibility to handle sensitive personnel issues, including but not limited to, determining and enforcing disciplinary action, and removal from office of elected or appointed officers.

One of the Points of Order made cited page 308 (?) RONR about rescinding officers. The 'parliamentarian' overrode the PO. This is the same parliamentarian who believes she is the IPP

Moon Beam was voted out of office with no charges levied against them.

What can be done? We have a very weak Exec Board, which will become even weaker when the 'IPP" leaves town.

Additionally, the General Membership seems to have little knowledge regarding rules and procedure.

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Step 1) Tell your parliamentarian to get a copy of RONR 11th ed. and read, on p. 574 & 653, that one does not "rescind" an election, but you can "remove from office", provided various bylaw provisions are in place.

Step 2) Tell your parliamentarian to read the rest of the book.

Step 3) Get copies of RONRIB for the entire Exec Board and have them read it.

RONRIB:

"Roberts Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief", Updated Second Edition (Da Capo Press, Perseus Books Group, 2011). It is a splendid summary of all the rules you will really need in all but the most exceptional situations. And only $7.50! You can read it in an evening. Get both RONRIB and RONR (scroll down) at this link.

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At the general membership meeting of the Dysfunctional Non Profit held May 14 at 2:00 pm in the Discipline Room to rescind the election of Moon Beam as Esteemed Executive Board Member and elect a new Esteemed Executive Board Member several things happened.

Okay

1) Other items were on the agenda of this special meeting.

So what? Is this what you want to do something about?

​2) During the attempt to rescind several people spoke up, called points of order, which the parliamentarian dismissed stating the new bylaw recently adopted covered the topic.

Parliamentarians don't have the power to "dismiss" points of order unless you have some customized rule that says so. Points of order should be ruled on by the presiding officer. Is this what you want to do something about?

New bylaw: The Executive Board is charged with the authority and responsibility to handle sensitive personnel issues, including but not limited to, determining and enforcing disciplinary action, and removal from office of elected or appointed officers.

Your membership will need to determine whether or not this new bylaw vests in the Executive Board the exclusive authority to remove Moon Beam. If so, he's still in office. Is this what you want to do something about?

One of the Points of Order made cited page 308 (?) RONR about rescinding officers. The 'parliamentarian' overrode the PO. This is the same parliamentarian who believes she is the IPP

Citing a page does not make a point of order, and what difference does it make that the parliamentarian believes she is the IPP? Is this what you want to do something about?

Moon Beam was voted out of office with no charges levied against them.

Them? How may are there? Is this what you want to do something about?

What can be done? We have a very weak Exec Board, which will become even weaker when the 'IPP" leaves town.

What can be done about what? About your weak Board? About the IPP leaving town?

Additionally, the General Membership seems to have little knowledge regarding rules and procedure.

Okay. Buy them all copies of RONRIB. It might be a good idea to get one for yourself. :)

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New bylaw: The Executive Board is charged with the authority and responsibility to handle sensitive personnel issues, including but not limited to, determining and enforcing disciplinary action, and removal from office of elected or appointed officers.

It's up to your organization to interpret its own Bylaws. See RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 588-591 for some Principles of Interpretation.

We can't interpret your Bylaws here, but I will say I'm quite puzzled as to how the Parliamentarian and/or the presiding officer felt that this rule supports the interpretation that the general membership can remove the officer, since the rule refers to the board.

This is the same parliamentarian who believes she is the IPP

Let's not start that again. I think we have enough going on in this thread already. :)

What can be done?

It might help if we knew what, exactly, you want to do something about. Based on the subject matter, I'm fairly certain that it will involve a Point of Order and Appeal and/or disciplinary procedures, but you'll need to be a little more specific to get more than that. Is your goal to rule the motion to remove Moon Beam null and void? Is it to discipline someone (such as the chair, the Parliamentarian, or some other member of the board)? Is it something else entirely?

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Step 1) Tell your parliamentarian to get a copy of RONR 11th ed. and read, on p. 574 & 653, that one does not "rescind" an election, but you can "remove from office", provided various bylaw provisions are in place.

Step 2) Tell your parliamentarian to read the rest of the book.

Step 3) Get copies of RONRIB for the entire Exec Board and have them read it.

RONRIB:

"Roberts Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief", Updated Second Edition (Da Capo Press, Perseus Books Group, 2011). It is a splendid summary of all the rules you will really need in all but the most exceptional situations. And only $7.50! You can read it in an evening. Get both RONRIB and RONR (scroll down) at this link.

I have both books and even the one for Dummies ;) They are very already getting raggedy from reading :)

Step 1) Was attempted and dismissed.

Step 2) The parliamentarian believes she knows all.

I will try Step 3.

Thank you.

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Parliamentarians don't have the power to "dismiss" points of order unless you have some customized rule that says so. Points of order should be ruled on by the presiding officer. Is this what you want to do something about?

Your membership will need to determine whether or not this new bylaw vests in the Executive Board the exclusive authority to remove Moon Beam. If so, he's still in office. Is this what you want to do something about?

Yes. What I posted in the OP is the only thing in our bylaws that refers to discipline. Our bylaws are very, very simple.

The best bylaw is this one "All meetings will be conducted according to RONR except when in conflict with these bylaws or the State of California." How would I bring this back up?

Citing a page does not make a point of order, and what difference does it make that the parliamentarian believes she is the IPP? Is this what you want to do something about?

When the point of order was called the chair did acknowledge the PO. When the person who called the PO cited/read from page 308 of RONR on why the board can't rescind the PO was dismissed by the parliamentarian.

The parliamentarian is part of the Executive Board if she is the IPP, but she is not really the IPP. I added that extra bit of info to possibly help jog some memories of my past posts.

Okay. Buy them all copies of RONRIB. It might be a good idea to get one for yourself. :)

I have one for myself, it's well read. The Exec Board should have their own copies.

Sorry for the quote function, I can't figure out how to quote, quote?

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It's up to your organization to interpret its own Bylaws. See RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 588-591 for some Principles of Interpretation.

We can't interpret your Bylaws here, but I will say I'm quite puzzled as to how the Parliamentarian and/or the presiding officer felt that this rule supports the interpretation that the general membership can remove the officer, since the rule refers to the board.

The action they took in Executive Board meeting was to vote to rescind the election of Moon Beam. They felt they had to bring it to the General Membership to vote on since the General Membership is who voted Moon Beam into office.

Let's not start that again. I think we have enough going on in this thread already. :)

Love that thread!

It might help if we knew what, exactly, you want to do something about. Based on the subject matter, I'm fairly certain that it will involve a Point of Order and Appeal and/or disciplinary procedures, but you'll need to be a little more specific to get more than that. Is your goal to rule the motion to remove Moon Beam null and void? Is it to discipline someone (such as the chair, the Parliamentarian, or some other member of the board)? Is it something else entirely?

I believe the goal is to rule the motion to remove Moon Beam null and void. The Parliamentarian aka IPP :) will be leaving town in under a month, probably won't be here for the next board meeting.

I just don't know exactly how to do it, if no one is listening to begin with, short of hiring a parliamentarian and bringing him to the next board meeting with me.

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I believe the goal is to rule the motion to remove Moon Beam null and void.

Raise a Point of Order at the next meeting of the general membership that rescinding the election was null and void, and then Appeal from the decision of the chair if necessary.

I just don't know exactly how to do it, if no one is listening to begin with, short of hiring a parliamentarian and bringing him to the next board meeting with me.

Well, you can't do anything at the next board meeting. The board can't overturn a decision by the general membership.

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Raise a Point of Order at the next meeting of the general membership that rescinding the election was null and void, and then Appeal from the decision of the chair if necessary.

Well, you can't do anything at the next board meeting. The board can't overturn a decision by the general membership.

Now we have another conundrum. There is no bylaw or standing rule regarding General Membership meetings, except "A GM will be held annually."

We have had three in the past 6 months.

Would making a motion at the next board meeting to request a General Meeting be appropriate?

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Now we have another conundrum. There is no bylaw or standing rule regarding General Membership meetings, except "A GM will be held annually."

We have had three in the past 6 months.

How did you call the other two meetings?

Would making a motion at the next board meeting to request a General Meeting be appropriate?

Only if the Bylaws so provide. Special meetings may only be called through the procedures in the Bylaws.

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Step 2) The parliamentarian believes she knows all.

Tell her that Mr. Honemann, whose name appears on the cover of the Book, disagrees with her, and see if she has second thoughts. If she's like most people who know all, she may not.

More to the point: if you're looking for a group of people who are pretty hot stuff when it comes to their parliamentary knowledge, this would be the place. And nobody here would be fool enough to claim that they "know all". Everyone here, including Mr. H., has to open the Work frequently, even if it's only to check the page number of something they know is in there.

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How did you call the other two meetings?

The other two meetings were called by the acting President (yes, I KNOW, but our bylaws do cover 'acting Presdient').

Only if the Bylaws so provide. Special meetings may only be called through the procedures in the Bylaws.

There are no procedures in our bylaws.

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Tell her that Mr. Honemann, whose name appears on the cover of the Book, disagrees with her, and see if she has second thoughts. If she's like most people who know all, she may not.

More to the point: if you're looking for a group of people who are pretty hot stuff when it comes to their parliamentary knowledge, this would be the place. And nobody here would be fool enough to claim that they "know all". Everyone here, including Mr. H., has to open the Work frequently, even if it's only to check the page number of something they know is in there.

She won't have second thoughts. She does think she knows all.

All of you have brought some of my sanity back, and I appreciate everyone's help and input!

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There are no procedures in our bylaws.

If there are no procedures in your Bylaws for calling special meetings of the general membership, then they can't be called, so it is not appropriate for the board, the Acting President, or anyone else to call one. This also means that those other special meetings are invalid and any business conducted is null and void... but, as I noted previously, the board doesn't have the authority to invalidate the actions of the general membership.

Unless the annual meeting is coming up soon, the only parliamentary option I can think of at this point is looking at the vacancy filling procedures in your Bylaws. If the board has the power to fill vacancies, you could try to appoint Moon Beam right back to the position she was removed from. Other than that, I think your only option would be to consult a lawyer to see what your legal options might be.

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If there are no procedures in your Bylaws for calling special meetings of the general membership, then they can't be called, so it is not appropriate for the board, the Acting President, or anyone else to call one. This also means that those other special meetings are invalid and any business conducted is null and void... but, as I noted previously, the board doesn't have the authority to invalidate the actions of the general membership.

The underlined is in reference to the annual board meeting where Moon Beam was elected. Do I understand that correctly?

Unless the annual meeting is coming up soon, the only parliamentary option I can think of at this point is looking at the vacancy filling procedures in your Bylaws. If the board has the power to fill vacancies, you could try to appoint Moon Beam right back to the position she was removed from. Other than that, I think your only option would be to consult a lawyer to see what your legal options might be.

The annual Gen Membership meeting is in Nov.

Additionally at the meeting where Moon Beam was voted off the island, a nomination came from the floor to replace Moon Beam. The nominee was voted into office.

As a Board Member, (not the Exec Board) I think my next step is to bring up at every meeting 'Where is (are) the Audit(s)?"

Our Bylaws do state an audit is to be performed annually. When I asked about the FY 2011 audit, I was told by the "IPP" that the CPA who prepares taxes for the group, also performed audits. I asked the IPP where the audit report was. No answer.

A quick email to the CPA confirmed what I already knew, there have been no audits.

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I"m somewhat confused. At the beginning of the Original Post, OP Ms Steeves said that all this began "At the general membership meeting of the Dysfunctional Non Profit held May 14 at 2:00 pm in the Discipline Room ..."

But in Post 9, she says, "The action they took in Executive Board meeting was to vote to rescind the election of Moon Beam. "

Were these two different meetings, or was the original statement that it was a general membership meeting an error, or was something else an error, or what?

Josh Martin, on 17 May 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

... but, as I noted previously, the board doesn't have the authority to invalidate the actions of the general membership.

The underlined is in reference to the annual board meeting where Moon Beam was elected. Do I understand that correctly?

I certainly would like to know too. Was Moon Beam elected at the annual BOARD (O Great Steaming Cobnuts, I am worked up) meeting? -- that is, she was elected by the board (a little calmer), not the general membership??

But I'll say that if the current bylaws say that the Executive Board (how many boards have you got?) is charged with removal of officers, and if the procedures for removing an officer were followed properly in Moon Beam's case other than calling the removal a "rescinding," it will probably stand.

The annual Gen Membership meeting is in Nov.

Additionally at the meeting where Moon Beam was voted off the island, a nomination came from the floor to replace Moon Beam. The nominee was voted into office.

Just gravy on the cake.

One thing now, please, Ms Steeves, feel free to bring up audits, but somewhere else. Please not in this thread (and please nobody else reply here about the audits). I hope this doesn't sound harsh.

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My apologies for any confusion.

I hope my responses either clear things up or make for more exploding heads ;)

I"m somewhat confused. At the beginning of the Original Post, OP Ms Steeves said that all this began "At the general membership meeting of the Dysfunctional Non Profit held May 14 at 2:00 pm in the Discipline Room ..."

But in Post 9, she says, "The action they took in Executive Board meeting was to vote to rescind the election of Moon Beam. "

Were these two different meetings, or was the original statement that it was a general membership meeting an error, or was something else an error, or what?

They were two different meetings. Per the new bylaw: The Executive Board is charged with the authority and responsibility to handle sensitive personnel issues, including but not limited to, determining and enforcing disciplinary action, and removal from office of elected or appointed officers.

That is all the bylaw states!

As I have read on this forum many times, where a bylaw is silent then RONR takes over...which leads me to the favorite of mine FAQ #20 and pg 308 regarding rules of rescind.

I certainly would like to know too. Was Moon Beam elected at the annual BOARD (O Great Steaming Cobnuts, I am worked up) meeting? -- that is, she was elected by the board (a little calmer), not the general membership??

Moon Beam was elected at the annual general membership meeting, by the general membership, in November 2012.

Bylaws state there is to be an annual meeting, once a year, to nominate and elect new officers.

But I'll say that if the current bylaws say that the Executive Board (how many boards have you got?) is charged with removal of officers, and if the procedures for removing an officer were followed properly in Moon Beam's case other than calling the removal a "rescinding," it will probably stand.

Our entire Board is made up of four elected executive officers, the awesome IPP and appointed Committee Chairs.

The action taken in the Executive Board meeting was a vote to rescind the election of Moon Beam. The Exec Board felt they had to bring it to the General Membership to vote on since it is up to the General Membership to nominate and elect officers.

To the bolded and underlined part above, the bylaw states: The Executive Board is charged with the authority and responsibility to handle sensitive personnel issues, including but not limited to, 1) determining and enforcing disciplinary action, 2) and removal from office of elected or appointed officers.

That is the bylaw in its entirety, I added 1) and 2) in order to respond to each point.

1) determining and enforcing disciplinary action; ​I believe the motion made to rescind the election is their interpretation of this portion of the bylaw.

2) and removal from office of elected or appointed officers; same as above

From all that I've read, the bolded underlined statement does not apply.

Just gravy on the cake.

Gravy cake? What flavor ;)

One thing now, please, Ms Steeves, feel free to bring up audits, but somewhere else. Please not in this thread (and please nobody else reply here about the audits). I hope this doesn't sound harsh.

I will be bringing up audits at the next BOD meeting. :)

The rest of the confusion, which I'm certain also rests on me is in my next post.

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If there are no procedures in your Bylaws for calling special meetings of the general membership, then they can't be called, so it is not appropriate for the board, the Acting President, or anyone else to call one. This also means that those other special meetings are invalid and any business conducted is null and void... but, as I noted previously, the board doesn't have the authority to invalidate the actions of the general membership.

There are no procedures in our Bylaws for calling special meetings of the general membership.

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snapback.pngJosh Martin, on 17 May 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

If there are no procedures in your Bylaws for calling special meetings of the general membership, then they can't be called, so it is not appropriate for the board, the Acting President, or anyone else to call one. This also means that those other special meetings are invalid and any business conducted is null and void... but, as I noted previously, the board doesn't have the authority to invalidate the actions of the general membership.

There are no procedures in our Bylaws for calling special meetings of the general membership.

Beyond calling PO's at our next Board meeting, would it be more efficient, or behoove me, to bring along a Professional Registered Parliamentarian?

I don't want to go the legal route, only because I don't want to make this such a huge issue which will tarnish the good reputation of this group.

The illustrious IPP will have moved to a Southwest state by the next Board meeting.

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Some thoughts. I'm not going to try clipping and interlineating this time... at most, just a little.

1. Steeves, you say: "As I have read on this forum many times, where a bylaw is silent then RONR takes over."

-- Okay, but what about the now-famous New Bylaw do you think is silent?

2. Perhaps we now understand that elections cannot be rescinded. (There are those who might think otherwise; understandably because, among other reasons, previous editions of RONR -- whose provisions are, of course, superseded by anything different in the current edition -- did say that elections can be rescinded in some circumstances. Those benighted but well-intentioned, and formerly well-informed, must be gently and kindly brought up to date.) Nevertheless, the New Bylaw prescribes that elected officers can be removed from office, and that it is the board who does this. My point was that since the board can do this, the board has apparently done it, and that it is of no, zero, significance that, in removing Moon Beam, the board mistakenly used the erroneous word "rescind." Is that not clear? If it is clear, do you disagree with it?

3. It looks to me as if your New Bylaw says that when board members are to be disciplined, up to and including removal from office, it is the board's job. So I don't see how the board feels it should take such a question to the membership. The board acts: it is a done deal.

4. Steeves says (Post 22): "From all that I've read, the bolded underlined statement does not apply," with reference to a statement of mine, which, rephrased, says that the New Bylaw says that it is the Board that has the duty of disciplining its own members. Is that not what the New Bylaw says (in both of its countable parts)? Did I mis-characterize what it says?

So why would my bolded, underlined statement not apply?

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