Changing a vote

[Guest Howard]

I sit on a county commission board of five commissioners.  At our last meeting a vote on an agenda item took pace.  The chairman announced the results of the item as 4-1 passes.  I sit at on extreme end of the seating of the commissioners and I did not hear who gave the negative vote and I asked who cast the negative vote.  The commissioner sitting to my left said "Ralph" (Ralph is the Chairman) and the Chairman (who sits two seats to my left) said "me". The two other commissioners sit still farther away to my left. 

 

That was the last item under the Planning and Zoning portion of the agenda.

 

The Chairman then went on to the agenda that concerned the County Attorney.  The County Attorney said that she had no items for the Board.

 

The Chairman went on the next item on the agenda which was the County Administrator.  The County Administrator discussed his first item and said that the first item was informational.  No vote was needed.

 

The County Administrator went on to present a second item of his.  After the County Administrator presented his second item (the second item did not require a vote of the Board)  and after over two minutes had passed since the 4-1 vote of the Planning and Zoning item, a commissioner sitting three seats away form me, said to the person taking the minutes of the meeting, "I joined Ralph in that vote", referring to the 4-1 Planning and Zoning vote.  

 

Nothing more was said or done.  The Board was not asked if they concurred or not.  The commissioner who said, "I joined Ralph in that vote. It was a 3-2 vote.", did not say he doubted the vote.  The Chairman said he did not hear that.  The chairman sits adjacent to the commissioner who said that he joined Ralph in that vote. The commissioner who said that that he voted with Ralph, said the chairman needed hearing aids.

 

I listened to the vote on the audio/video over a dozen times.  It is difficult to hear with the multiple "ayes" if the commissioner who said he voted with "Ralph" voted yes, but he is not heard voting against the item when the nays are called for.  

 

After two minutes passing since the 4-1 vote and after two agenda headings being called by the Chairman to speak and after two items discussed by the County Administrator, and with no call out of "division" and with no commissioner doubting the vote, what is the final status of the vote?  Neither the chairman nor the Board agreed to change the vote as stated by the chairman as 4-1.  The minutes are coming to the Board for approval at our April 20th meeting and the minutes reflect a 3-2 vote for the Planning and Zoning item (based on the statement of the commissioner who stated that he voted with Ralph).

 

Under Roberts Rules how should the vote be reflected?  

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Lages]

Under RONR, the announcement of the vote by the chair is what stands, unless a timely point of order, or a motion for a counted vote (or a roll call vote) is made before the next item of business is introduced. Whether a statement that "I joined Ralph in that vote" constitutes a valid point of order is debatable and it certainly did not satisfy the timeliness criteria. In any event, whether the actual vote was 4-1 or 3-2 makes no difference in the outcome if a majority was required. Even if something other than a majority, such a 2/3 vote, was required, it is too late to contest the announcement of the vote.

[Hieu H. Huynh]

I would also have difficulty hearing the difference between 4 "ayes" and 3 "ayes".

[Josh Martin]

I sit on a county commission board of five commissioners. At our last meeting a vote on an agenda item took pace. The chairman announced the results of the item as 4-1 passes. I sit at on extreme end of the seating of the commissioners and I did not hear who gave the negative vote and I asked who cast the negative vote. The commissioner sitting to my left said "Ralph" (Ralph is the Chairman) and the Chairman (who sits two seats to my left) said "me". The two other commissioners sit still farther away to my left.

That was the last item under the Planning and Zoning portion of the agenda.

The Chairman then went on to the agenda that concerned the County Attorney. The County Attorney said that she had no items for the Board.

The Chairman went on the next item on the agenda which was the County Administrator. The County Administrator discussed his first item and said that the first item was informational. No vote was needed.

The County Administrator went on to present a second item of his. After the County Administrator presented his second item (the second item did not require a vote of the Board) and after over two minutes had passed since the 4-1 vote of the Planning and Zoning item, a commissioner sitting three seats away form me, said to the person taking the minutes of the meeting, "I joined Ralph in that vote", referring to the 4-1 Planning and Zoning vote.

Nothing more was said or done. The Board was not asked if they concurred or not. The commissioner who said, "I joined Ralph in that vote. It was a 3-2 vote.", did not say he doubted the vote. The Chairman said he did not hear that. The chairman sits adjacent to the commissioner who said that he joined Ralph in that vote. The commissioner who said that that he voted with Ralph, said the chairman needed hearing aids.

I listened to the vote on the audio/video over a dozen times. It is difficult to hear with the multiple "ayes" if the commissioner who said he voted with "Ralph" voted yes, but he is not heard voting against the item when the nays are called for.

After two minutes passing since the 4-1 vote and after two agenda headings being called by the Chairman to speak and after two items discussed by the County Administrator, and with no call out of "division" and with no commissioner doubting the vote, what is the final status of the vote? Neither the chairman nor the Board agreed to change the vote as stated by the chairman as 4-1. The minutes are coming to the Board for approval at our April 20th meeting and the minutes reflect a 3-2 vote for the Planning and Zoning item (based on the statement of the commissioner who stated that he voted with Ralph).

Under Roberts Rules how should the vote be reflected?

It should be recorded that the motion was adopted. The count would be reflected only if a counted vote had actually been ordered. The count is not recorded on a voice vote.

[Gary Novosielski]

Since it was a voice vote, not only would the count not be recorded, it might never be known, nor is it important.  If it is, then voice voting should not be used. If a voice vote appears inconclusive any member may call for a counted vote, but even then the identity of each member would not be recorded although the count of Yes and No votes would be.

 

If it's actually necessary to record how each member voted, a roll-call vote should be used instead.

[George Mervosh]

If a voice vote appears inconclusive any member may call for a counted vote,

 

Well they can't demand a counted vote, no.  Any member may demand a Division of the Assembly as long as it's not clearly dilatory, and they may move for a count if the division appears inconclusive or in doubt.  The chair himself can order the count as well.  RONR (11th ed.), p. 52.

[Hieu H. Huynh]

Also see this thread.