Guest KerryL1959 Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:38 PM Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:38 PM I serve on an HOA board of five that approved a motion in January to spend $250,000 for repairs of some exclusive use common area components. Our board meetings are monthly except for December when we do not meet, so the January agenda was jam-packed with significant agenda items. At our May meeting, a board majority approved a different motion to spend $750,000 on this project by including a large number of additional components in the same category as the January decision. The January decision was not rescinded or amended. I confess I completely forgot about the January motion. Is the May decision valid? If not, and I did vote against it, should I/other directors try to rescind the May decision? Advice please. thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted July 16, 2018 at 12:04 AM Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 at 12:04 AM Unless there is evidence that the May meeting adopted the motion with the necessary threshold to Amend Something Previously Adopted it would be null and void per RONR p. 251(b). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted July 16, 2018 at 12:20 AM Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 at 12:20 AM (edited) 16 minutes ago, Chris Harrison said: Unless there is evidence that the May meeting adopted the motion with the necessary threshold to Amend Something Previously Adopted it would be null and void per RONR p. 251(b). I concur, however, with such a small board, such evidence may not be difficult to obtain. If all five members were present (and none abstained), for instance, there would be no difference between a majority vote and a vote of the entire membership, and it already appears to be an accepted fact that the motion was adopted by majority vote. Edited July 16, 2018 at 12:21 AM by Josh Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted July 16, 2018 at 08:57 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 at 08:57 PM Does the May motion prevent your HOA from carrying out the January motion? That is, can you do what both motions say? If you can, then I'm not sure that there is a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted July 16, 2018 at 09:00 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 at 09:00 PM Mr. Kapur's point sounds right to me. Absent other rules, why does a motion to spend x on y contradict a later-adopted motion to spend more? I could see it if it were done in the other temporal direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted July 16, 2018 at 09:10 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 at 09:10 PM Well, a motion, the second one, to spend more would be out of order if there wasn't enough $$ in the bank to cover the larger (in total) amount to be spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted July 16, 2018 at 09:21 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 at 09:21 PM I think a problem would exist only if the second expenditure motion was for the exact same thing. The fact that these two motions share some type of classification does not present a problem. If they cannot both be carried out independently, as Kapur has stated, then yes there would be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted July 16, 2018 at 11:32 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 at 11:32 PM 2 hours ago, jstackpo said: Well, a motion, the second one, to spend more would be out of order if there wasn't enough $$ in the bank to cover the larger (in total) amount to be spent. Agreed, that would be an example of a situation where both motions cannot be followed. I just didn't want to assume that was the case. The wording of the question suggests this type of problem but doesn't say so explicitly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted July 16, 2018 at 11:47 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 at 11:47 PM 2 hours ago, jstackpo said: Well, a motion, the second one, to spend more would be out of order if there wasn't enough $$ in the bank to cover the larger (in total) amount to be spent. Why would that be out of order as opposed to, say, just a bad idea? Would it be out of order to adopt a deficit budget? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted July 17, 2018 at 12:43 AM Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 at 12:43 AM Well, if the total amount budgeted for that item is less than the sum of the January and May motions, then it would be out of order because the May motion would then conflict with the budget, which is a motion adopted and still in force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted July 17, 2018 at 02:06 AM Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 at 02:06 AM Sure, but the comment here was about the bank balance, which is something that can change from day to day. Maybe I confused the issue by introducing budgets, but my point was that I don't see any reason it's out of order to plan to spend more than you have, so I don't see why a motion to actually do it is out of order, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted July 17, 2018 at 02:15 PM Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 at 02:15 PM 17 hours ago, jstackpo said: Well, a motion, the second one, to spend more would be out of order if there wasn't enough $$ in the bank to cover the larger (in total) amount to be spent. Why? The society could borrow the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted July 17, 2018 at 02:25 PM Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 at 02:25 PM 1 minute ago, J. J. said: Why? The society could borrow the money But that would require another motion. If it was made first, and adopted, maybe OK. But if the "overspending" motion was made (prior to the "get a loan" motion), it ("overspend") would be out of order as it would be impossible to comply with both motions (initial "spend" and subsequent "overspend") at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted July 17, 2018 at 02:45 PM Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 at 02:45 PM (edited) 30 minutes ago, J. J. said: Why? The society could borrow the money. I agree. The funds (or lack thereof) available might be a subject of debate on the motion, but would not, per se, be a reason to rule the motion out of order. Someone in favor might announce that if the motion passes, she will offer other motions to cut spending in other areas, or to arrange for a loan or for a source of additional income. Edited July 17, 2018 at 02:46 PM by Gary Novosielski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted July 17, 2018 at 03:03 PM Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 at 03:03 PM (edited) 17 hours ago, jstackpo said: Well, a motion, the second one, to spend more would be out of order if there wasn't enough $$ in the bank to cover the larger (in total) amount to be spent. 53 minutes ago, J. J. said: Why? The society could borrow the money. 23 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said: I agree. The funds (or lack thereof) available might be a subject of debate on the motion, but would not, per se, be a reason to rule the motion out of order. Someone in favor might announce that if the motion passes, she will offer other motions to cut spending in other areas, or to arrange for a loan or for a source of additional income. I agree with the posts quoted above by J.J. and Gary Novosielski. A motion to spend more money than the organization has in the bank is not our of order per se. A motion to rob a bank to get the money would not be out of order, either, per the 11th edition, as the laws prohibiting bank robbery are not procedural laws. Under previous editions, it might have been out of order to adopt a motion to rob a bank, but the 11th edition (or maybe the 10th) clarified that only violations of procedural laws cause a motion to be out of order. Unwise, perhaps, but not out of order. See pages 3, 125 and 251 of RONR 11th ed. Edited July 17, 2018 at 03:10 PM by Richard Brown Corrected typo and added citation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted July 17, 2018 at 03:18 PM Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 at 03:18 PM 29 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said: I agree. The funds (or lack thereof) available might be a subject of debate on the motion, but would not, per se, be a reason to rule the motion out of order. Someone in favor might announce that if the motion passes, she will offer other motions to cut spending in other areas, or to arrange for a loan or for a source of additional income. Or the organization's stock holdings could issue a dividend. Point being, to be clear, even if none of those things happened in debate, there's nothing inherently out of order, in my opinion, about adopting the motion. We do not know what the future holds. Think of the consequences if such a motion were out of order. Suppose there is $100 in the bank, and I make a motion to spend $70. In order, right? But how can we know that, before the expenditure, the organization won't be assessed a $40 fine? 12 minutes ago, Richard Brown said: I agree with the posts quoted above by J.J. and Gary Novosielski. A motion to spend more money than the organization has in the bank is not our of order per se. A motion to rob a bank to get the money would not be out of order, either, per the 11th edition, as the laws prohibiting bank robbery are not procedural laws. Under previous editions, it might have been out of order to adopt a motion to rob a bank, but the 11th edition (or maybe the 10th) clarified that only violations of procedural laws cause a motion to be out of order. Unwise, perhaps, but not out of order. See pages 3, 125 and 251 of RONR 11th ed. Exactly. In these days of overdraft protection, it isn't even the case that paying more than is in the account is necessarily impossible or illegal anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted July 17, 2018 at 05:55 PM Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 at 05:55 PM Wisdom is not requirement in determining if a motion is in order. You might look at "Follow, Flight, or Flee," National Parliamentarian, Fourth Quarter, 2013, which touches on unwise motions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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