Does an endorsement require a signature

[randigb]

The bylaws for our dog club state:

"The application shall state the name, address and occupation of the applicant and it shall carry the endorsement of two members in good standing."

The membership application has a place for signatures of the two members in good standing. Can those signature lines be removed from the application without a change to the bylaws? 

[Atul Kapur]

Interpretation of your bylaws is something your organization will have to decide.

[Hieu H. Huynh]

If the bylaws are ambiguous, they should be amended to remove the ambiguity.

[randigb]

Thanks but it doesn't answer my question.

[Hieu H. Huynh]

If the bylaws require it, then it must be done. If you don't want the bylaws to require it, then amend the bylaws.

[Dan Honemann]

Your question (actually, you asked one question in the topic title and a somewhat different one in the body of your post) hasn't been answered because you've come to the wrong place looking for the answer. 

As previously noted, your dog club will have to decide for itself the meaning of this provision in your bylaws. No one here has any way of knowing whether or not it means that signatures (or lines for signatures) are required.

In this connection, take a look at pages 588-91 in RONR (11th ed.).

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/21/2018 at 1:30 AM, randigb said:

The bylaws for our dog club state:

"The application shall state the name, address and occupation of the applicant and it shall carry the endorsement of two members in good standing."

The membership application has a place for signatures of the two members in good standing. Can those signature lines be removed from the application without a change to the bylaws? 

I suppose they could, but removing the lines would not remove the requirement that the application must carry the endorsement of two members.  How will those members know where to sign if you remove the lines?  It seems to me that would increase the likelihood of receiving applications that would have to be rejected.

Perhaps you could explain the reason for removing these lines.  If there is some other way that "carry the endorsement" could be interpreted, it's not obvious to me, but as others have noted, interpretation of bylaws (or modification thereof) is something only your organization can do.

Edited July 22, 2018 at 02:16 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Josh Martin]

37 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

I suppose they could, but removing the lines would not remove the requirement that the application must carry the endorsement of two members.  How will those members know where to sign if you remove the lines?  It seems to me that would increase the likelihood of receiving applications that would have to be rejected.

Perhaps you could explain the reason for removing these lines.  If there is some other way that "carry the endorsement" could be interpreted, it's not obvious to me, but as others have noted, interpretation of bylaws (or modification thereof) is something only your organization can do.

Well, the question in the topic’s title was whether an endorsement requires a signature, so presumably the members who are proposing this change have some other method in mind for such endorsements to be indicated.

[Gary Novosielski]

8 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

Well, the question in the topic’s title was whether an endorsement requires a signature, so presumably the members who are proposing this change have some other method in mind for such endorsements to be indicated.

Yes, for some reason I did not see the title until after I read and answered the question.  I know how my bank would respond, but that's neither here nor there.

It would be nice if the  OP could satisfy my curiosity over what the perceived problem is with the two signature lines.  It's the first method that would come to my mind, and it leaves me wondering how it could be improved.

[J. J.]

On 7/21/2018 at 1:30 AM, randigb said:

The bylaws for our dog club state:

"The application shall state the name, address and occupation of the applicant and it shall carry the endorsement of two members in good standing."

The membership application has a place for signatures of the two members in good standing. Can those signature lines be removed from the application without a change to the bylaws? 

In terms of American English, "endorsement" means "an inscription (as a signature or notation) on a document or instrument; especially : an inscription usually on the back of a negotiable instrument that transfers or guarantees the instrument." An inscription would include, but not be limited to a signature, but should be something under the rules.  Presumably, the document could have no lines to sign, but two members could sign the back or somehow "inscribe" it to guarantee that they support the application.

The rule itself does not require signature lines at the bottom, but it does require some type of an inscription.  Even if an application did not have signature lines, the rule would still require that it be signed or "inscribed.". 

 

[Dan Honemann]

9 minutes ago, J. J. said:

In terms of American English, "endorsement" means "an inscription (as a signature or notation) on a document or instrument; especially : an inscription usually on the back of a negotiable instrument that transfers or guarantees the instrument." An inscription would include, but not be limited to a signature, but should be something under the rules.  Presumably, the document could have no lines to sign, but two members could sign the back or somehow "inscribe" it to guarantee that they support the application.

The rule itself does not require signature lines at the bottom, but it does require some type of an inscription.  Even if an application did not have signature lines, the rule would still require that it be signed or "inscribed.". 

 

Oh, the word "endorsement" can certainly mean more things than just this.

[Gary Novosielski]

2 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Oh, the word "endorsement" can certainly mean more things than just this.

Probably, but the rule also says the application itself must "carry" the endorsements, which sounds like something written must be attached to it in some way, at the very least.

Originally I had the thought that merely moving and seconding the approval of the application might suffice as the two endorsements, but there is that provision in RONR that seconding does not imply approval.  And for all we know, the application does not come up for a vote before the assembly, if it has the requisite endorsements.

Edited July 23, 2018 at 03:40 PM by Gary Novosielski

[J. J.]

3 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Oh, the word "endorsement" can certainly mean more things than just this.

Well, I cannot think of another one that could be stated on an "application."   If the rule did not apply just to the application itself, I would agree. 

[Joshua Katz]

Well, I agree with J.J. that there aren't other meanings, at least none that come to mind, with regard to a physical, paper application. It is possible, though (albeit unlikely 😉 ) that the organization in question was somewhat imprecise in its phrasing, and meant only that two members had to agree with the new member, not that endorsements must be "carried" on the form. In the end, though, I think it makes little difference regardless, unless there is some terrible trouble involved with getting the signatures.

[Dan Honemann]

 

1 hour ago, Joshua Katz said:

Well, I agree with J.J. that there aren't other meanings, at least none that come to mind, with regard to a physical, paper application. It is possible, though (albeit unlikely 😉 ) that the organization in question was somewhat imprecise in its phrasing, and meant only that two members had to agree with the new member, not that endorsements must be "carried" on the form. In the end, though, I think it makes little difference regardless, unless there is some terrible trouble involved with getting the signatures.

So you insist that an application cannot "carry" a person's endorsement (support, backing, approval, whatever) of someone's application without that person actually signing it. It can't simply say that Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Katz (both members in good standing) support this applicant. No doubt about it, eh?  🙂

[Joshua Katz]

8 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

So you insist that an application cannot "carry" a person's endorsement (support, backing, approval, whatever) of someone's application without that person actually signing it. It can't simply say that Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Katz (both members in good standing) support this applicant. No doubt about it, eh?  🙂

Well, my major point was that there is more doubt than that, but I admit that this is pretty convincing, so I'll also say there can be a moderate amount of doubt as well.

[J. J.]

4 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

 

So you insist that an application cannot "carry" a person's endorsement (support, backing, approval, whatever) of someone's application without that person actually signing it. It can't simply say that Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Katz (both members in good standing) support this applicant. No doubt about it, eh?  🙂

No, don't.  I think  that  something has to be placed on the application to comply with the rule.  The rule is:  "The application shall state the name, address and occupation of the applicant and it shall carry the endorsement of two members in good standing."  

The rule does not say that "two members in good standing" must endorse the candidate.  It says that, "The application ... shall carry the endorsement of two members in good standing."   Something would have to be on the application to conform with the rule.  That would not necessarily be a signature.

Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Katz  could verbally offer an endorsement, but that application would not "carry the endorsement of two members in good standing."  Even though the applicant has two members endorsing him, for the application to comply with the rules, that endorsement has to be on the application. 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 at 10:19 PM by J. J.

[Steven Britton]

21 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

 

So you insist that an application cannot "carry" a person's endorsement (support, backing, approval, whatever) of someone's application without that person actually signing it. It can't simply say that Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Katz (both members in good standing) support this applicant. No doubt about it, eh?  🙂

Would the following action at a meeting suffice: "Mr. President, Mr. X and Mrs. Y request that their endorsement of Mr. A and B Miss be enter in the minutes." (?)

Edited July 24, 2018 at 03:39 PM by Steven Britton

[J. J.]

4 hours ago, Steven Britton said:

Would the following action at a meeting suffice: "Mr. President, Mr. X and Mrs. Y request that their endorsement of Mr. A and B Miss be enter in the minutes." (?)

It would not comply with the rule, as written.  The assembly instructing the secretary to note the endorsement on the membership application would comply with the rule. 

To strictly comply with the rule, something has to be on the application indicating the endorsement, but not necessarily a signature of the two endorsers.