Roman.76 Posted January 31, 2019 at 09:41 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 09:41 PM I the president of a student council that is governed by a single constitution and bylaws document and the latest edition of RRNR. At a previous regular council meeting, a motion was adopted to create a special committee of five members to organize an event the council will be hosting. After the motion was adopted, the council went straight into making nominations for the special committee. After there were no more nominations, the chair closed the nominations and the council voted by ballot. In the end, five members were appointed to the committee. Our bylaws state that a committee shall consist of either three or five members, besides the vice president (who is an ex-offico member of all committees). It also states that members to any type of committee shall be elected by ballot. Recently, two members declined their position on the committee, which leaves the committee with two vacancies. The council now needs to appoint two more members to the committee in order to fulfill the five-member positions that were established by the adopted motion. With that said, I'm wondering what is the proper procedure to fill the two vacancies (ie. what motion needs to be made to do so, etc.)? Thank you for any help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted January 31, 2019 at 09:49 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 09:49 PM 5 minutes ago, Roman.76 said: With that said, I'm wondering what is the proper procedure to fill the two vacancies (ie. what motion needs to be made to do so, etc.)? It seems to me that, barring any special provisions for filling vacancies on committees, they should be filled by the same body and procedure as the initial appointment, i.e. by the council, and by ballot. But here's an interesting question for forum regulars to ponder (at least, I think it's interesting): 7 minutes ago, Roman.76 said: besides the vice president (who is an ex-offico member of all committees). Does the VP count towards/against quorum? We know if the same provision specified the President, he would not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted January 31, 2019 at 10:14 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 10:14 PM 22 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said: Does the VP count towards/against quorum? We know if the same provision specified the President, he would not. The restriction in question specifically excludes the person of the president and no one else. I believe there was a thread about this issue sometime back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman.76 Posted January 31, 2019 at 10:17 PM Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 10:17 PM 17 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said: It seems to me that, barring any special provisions for filling vacancies on committees, they should be filled by the same body and procedure as the initial appointment, i.e. by the council, and by ballot. Thank you for confirming that, but what motion exactly needs to be made in order to do that. Would it be a motion to open nominations, a motion to appoint members to the vacant positions, etc? I'm looking for a step-by-step process if someone can provide me with one. 17 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said: But here's an interesting question for forum regulars to ponder (at least, I think it's interesting): Does the VP count towards/against quorum? We know if the same provision specified the President, he would not. In response to your question about whether the vice president counts towards a quorum of a committee or not (as an ex-officio member): RRNR, page 497, lines 20-22 states, "The rules affecting ex-officio members of committees are the same as those applying to ex-officio members of boards (pp. 483-84)." Page 483, line 35, and page 484, lines 1-3 states, "The latter class of ex-offico board member, who had no obligation to participate, should not be counted in determining the number required for a quorum or whether a quorum is present at a meeting." Therefore, I believe the vice president does not count towards a quorum. However, someone please correct me if I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted January 31, 2019 at 10:51 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 10:51 PM The previous discussion was here The upshot is that When the President is made a member of all committees (with limited exceptions), they are not subject to the usual obligations (= not counted towards quorum), and that this privilege only applies to the President. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:02 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:02 PM 36 minutes ago, Roman.76 said: Page 483, line 35, and page 484, lines 1-3 states, "The latter class of ex-offico board member, who had no obligation to participate, should not be counted in determining the number required for a quorum or whether a quorum is present at a meeting." Therefore, I believe the vice president does not count towards a quorum. However, someone please correct me if I am wrong. Roman, the problem here is that the section you quoted refers to ex-officio members who are not under the authority of the society; that's what "latter class" means in the quote above. It refers to the immediately preceding lines 30-34 of page 483. The example of someone who is outside the society's authority is a state governor who is ex officio a trustee of a private academy. The Vice-President is under the authority of the society, so the Vice-President does count towards a quorum. In fact, there is no distinction between the VP and any other member of the committee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:05 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:05 PM 45 minutes ago, Roman.76 said: Thank you for confirming that, but what motion exactly needs to be made in order to do that. Would it be a motion to open nominations, a motion to appoint members to the vacant positions, etc? I'm looking for a step-by-step process if someone can provide me with one. Any of these is fine. 45 minutes ago, Roman.76 said: In response to your question about whether the vice president counts towards a quorum of a committee or not (as an ex-officio member): RRNR, page 497, lines 20-22 states, "The rules affecting ex-officio members of committees are the same as those applying to ex-officio members of boards (pp. 483-84)." Page 483, line 35, and page 484, lines 1-3 states, "The latter class of ex-offico board member, who had no obligation to participate, should not be counted in determining the number required for a quorum or whether a quorum is present at a meeting." Therefore, I believe the vice president does not count towards a quorum. However, someone please correct me if I am wrong. The Vice President does count towards the quorum, unless your rules provide otherwise. The rule you cite from pg. 483 doesn’t apply to the VP, because the VP isn’t part of the latter class of ex-officio members discussed on that page. “In the executive board of a society, if the ex-officio member of the board is under the authority of the society (that is, if he is a member, an employee, or an elected or appointed officer of the society), there is no distinction between him and the other board members. If the ex-officio member is not under the authority of the society, he has all the privileges of board membership, including the right to make motions and to vote, but none of the obligations—just as in a case, for example, where the governor of a state is ex officio a trustee of a private academy.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 483) The “latter class” refers to the members described in the second sentence - those who are not under the authority of the society. The VP quite clearly falls into the former class - those who are “under the authority of the society (that is, if he is a member, an employee, or an elected or appointed officer of the society).” As the text notes, in these instances, there is no distinction between the ex-officious member and other members. In the case of committees, RONR also provides that “When the bylaws provide that the president shall be ex officio a member of all committees (or of all committees with the stated exception of those from which the president is best excluded; see pp. 579–80), the president is an ex-officio member who has the right, but not the obligation, to participate in the proceedings of the committees, and he is not counted in determining the number required for a quorum or whether a quorum is present at a meeting.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 497) There is, however, no such rule for the Vice President. If it wishes, the organization is free to adopt a comparable rule for the Vice President. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman.76 Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:05 PM Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:05 PM 2 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said: Roman, the problem here is that the section you quoted refers to ex-officio members who are not under the authority of the society; that's what "latter class" means in the quote above. It refers to the immediately preceding lines 30-34 of page 483. The example of someone who is outside the society's authority is a state governor who is ex officio a trustee of a private academy. The Vice-President is under the authority of the society, so the Vice-President does count towards a quorum. In fact, there is no distinction between the VP and any other member of the committee. Ok, thank you for clarifying that. You're right, I missed that part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:27 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:27 PM (edited) 1 hour ago, Roman.76 said: Thank you for confirming that, but what motion exactly needs to be made in order to do that. Would it be a motion to open nominations, a motion to appoint members to the vacant positions, etc? I'm looking for a step-by-step process if someone can provide me with one. I'd suggest that you include the notice of election in the call for your next meeting. Then, when the meeting reaches General Orders New Business the Chair can start the election by announcing that nominations are open. Edited January 31, 2019 at 11:57 PM by Atul Kapur Not clear it could come under General Orders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman.76 Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:38 PM Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:38 PM 5 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said: I'd suggest that you include the notice of election in the call for your next meeting. Then, when the meeting reaches General Orders the Chair can start the election by announcing that nominations are open. For something to be made a general order doesn't it have to be voted to be such at a previous meeting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:59 PM Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 at 11:59 PM It's not explicit, so I've edited my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman.76 Posted February 1, 2019 at 01:19 AM Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 at 01:19 AM 1 hour ago, Atul Kapur said: It's not explicit, so I've edited my post. 1 hour ago, Atul Kapur said: I'd suggest that you include the notice of election in the call for your next meeting. Then, when the meeting reaches General Orders New Business the Chair can start the election by announcing that nominations are open. Thank you very much! Lastly, I wanted to see if anyone finds anything wrong with this procedure? This occurred at a previous meeting and I want to confirm if this is possible to do or if there were any errors in this procedure. 1) a member asked unanimous consent to open nominations for a vacant committee position 2) without objection, nominations were open 3) nominations were made 4) after there were no more nominations, nominations were closed 5) a member moved to set the ballot vote for the nominees as a special order for the next meeting (This was done so the council could contact the nominees to see if they were interested in serving before voting.) 5) the motion was adopted Anything wrong here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted February 1, 2019 at 01:22 AM Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 at 01:22 AM Seems OK to me, but stay tuned -- my average has been falling lately... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted February 1, 2019 at 02:58 AM Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 at 02:58 AM 1 hour ago, Roman.76 said: 1) a member asked unanimous consent to open nominations for a vacant committee position I'm curious as whether this was a regular or special meeting, what heading in the order of business was current, and why do you think the member requested unanimous consent rather than the chairman just announcing that nominations were open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman.76 Posted February 1, 2019 at 03:52 AM Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 at 03:52 AM 34 minutes ago, Guest Zev said: I'm curious as whether this was a regular or special meeting, what heading in the order of business was current, and why do you think the member requested unanimous consent rather than the chairman just announcing that nominations were open. This was a regular meeting and it was done under New Business. I think the chair did not announce that nominations were open because it was under New Business and it was not a special order or general order. I think the chair can only announce something like that if it is "supposed" to come up (such as a special order or general order). Does anyone else have a different perspective on this situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted February 1, 2019 at 04:01 AM Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 at 04:01 AM Well, if there are new resignations to be accepted or new vacancies to be filled, these are "supposed" to come up under New Business, so the chair can and should announce them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 1, 2019 at 01:32 PM Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 at 01:32 PM 13 hours ago, Roman.76 said: For something to be made a general order doesn't it have to be voted to be such at a previous meeting? Not necessarily at a previous meeting. The assembly may vote to make an item a general order for later in the same meeting. 12 hours ago, Roman.76 said: Anything wrong here? I don’t see a problem. 9 hours ago, Gary Novosielski said: Well, if there are new resignations to be accepted or new vacancies to be filled, these are "supposed" to come up under New Business, so the chair can and should announce them. Where in RONR is this found? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted February 3, 2019 at 08:08 PM Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 at 08:08 PM On 1/31/2019 at 4:41 PM, Roman.76 said: Our bylaws state that a committee shall consist of either three or five members, besides the vice president (who is an ex-offico member of all committees). It also states that members to any type of committee shall be elected by ballot. On 1/31/2019 at 6:05 PM, Josh Martin said: In the case of committees, RONR also provides that “When the bylaws provide that the president shall be ex officio a member of all committees (or of all committees with the stated exception of those from which the president is best excluded; see pp. 579–80), the president is an ex-officio member who has the right, but not the obligation, to participate in the proceedings of the committees, and he is not counted in determining the number required for a quorum or whether a quorum is present at a meeting.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 497) There is, however, no such rule for the Vice President. If it wishes, the organization is free to adopt a comparable rule for the Vice President. We don't have the exact wording of the bylaws, but I think in this case it might be perfectly reasonable to interpret the provisions as excluding the vice-president from being counted toward the quorum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted February 3, 2019 at 08:38 PM Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 at 08:38 PM 26 minutes ago, Shmuel Gerber said: We don't have the exact wording of the bylaws, but I think in this case it might be perfectly reasonable to interpret the provisions as excluding the vice-president from being counted toward the quorum. I agree and that has been my thought from the beginning. I don't think the rule as stated in RONR can be applied only to the president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman.76 Posted February 3, 2019 at 09:08 PM Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 at 09:08 PM 57 minutes ago, Shmuel Gerber said: We don't have the exact wording of the bylaws, but I think in this case it might be perfectly reasonable to interpret the provisions as excluding the vice-president from being counted toward the quorum. 27 minutes ago, Richard Brown said: I agree and that has been my thought from the beginning. I don't think the rule as stated in RONR can be applied only to the president. Below is the wording from the bylaws. Please let me know what you think. Section 6.1 - Establishing Committees; Vice President’s Ex-Officio Membership. Committees, standing or special, may be established by the Council as it shall deem necessary. Each committee shall consist of three or five members, besides the vice president. Their members shall be elected by ballot as prescribed by the parliamentary authority. Each Council member may nominate one person. The vice president shall be an ex officio member of all committees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted February 3, 2019 at 09:31 PM Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 at 09:31 PM 16 minutes ago, Roman.76 said: Below is the wording from the bylaws. Please let me know what you think. Section 6.1 - Establishing Committees; Vice President’s Ex-Officio Membership. Committees, standing or special, may be established by the Council as it shall deem necessary. Each committee shall consist of three or five members, besides the vice president. Their members shall be elected by ballot as prescribed by the parliamentary authority. Each Council member may nominate one person. The vice president shall be an ex officio member of all committees. I think it would be reasonable, or at least not unreasonable, to interpret this provision as giving the vice president the right but not the obligation to participate in committee meetings. And in that case, he or she would not be counted toward the quorum requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted February 3, 2019 at 10:36 PM Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 at 10:36 PM I'm curious as to the logic behind this. I had written earlier that this relief from an obligation (not counting towards the quorum requirement) was available only to the president, based on p. 497 as quoted above. Are you saying that it would be a reasonable interpretation to extend that to any officer who was ex officio made a member of all committees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted February 3, 2019 at 10:48 PM Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 at 10:48 PM 6 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said: I'm curious as to the logic behind this. I had written earlier that this relief from an obligation (not counting towards the quorum requirement) was available only to the president, based on p. 497 as quoted above. Are you saying that it would be a reasonable interpretation to extend that to any officer who was ex officio made a member of all committees? I think that if you look at the wording of this particular bylaw provision, which speaks of committees having "three or five members, besides the vice president" and of the vice president being "an ex officio member" of all committees, and which does not limit the number of committees that may be appointed, it is reasonable to conclude that the vice president is not intended to serve as a regular working member of all the committees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted February 3, 2019 at 11:25 PM Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 at 11:25 PM 46 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said: I'm curious as to the logic behind this. I had written earlier that this relief from an obligation (not counting towards the quorum requirement) was available only to the president, based on p. 497 as quoted above. Are you saying that it would be a reasonable interpretation to extend that to any officer who was ex officio made a member of all committees? 33 minutes ago, Shmuel Gerber said: I think that if you look at the wording of this particular bylaw provision, which speaks of committees having "three or five members, besides the vice president" and of the vice president being "an ex officio member" of all committees, and which does not limit the number of committees that may be appointed, it is reasonable to conclude that the vice president is not intended to serve as a regular working member of all the committees. I agree. That is the way I interpret the rule, also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted February 3, 2019 at 11:56 PM Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 at 11:56 PM On 2/1/2019 at 8:32 AM, Josh Martin said: On 1/31/2019 at 11:01 PM, Gary Novosielski said: Well, if there are new resignations to be accepted or new vacancies to be filled, these are "supposed" to come up under New Business, so the chair can and should announce them. Where in RONR is this found? Well, if they're not reports, and not special or general orders, where would they come up if not under New Business? Or were you questioning whether the chair could announce them before someone made a motion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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