Motion out of order

[Guest Cindy]

Hello

can someone help me with this please.  Can a member of a Board call a Motion Out of Order?  If what are the steps required.

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

If a member believes that a motion is out of order but the presiding officer does not rule it out of order, the member can immediately raise a point of order, and state his or her reasons. If the presiding officer rules the point "not well taken" and continues to move forward with the motion, the member can immediately appeal from the ruling of the chair, in which case the full assembly would decide the question, which would be "shall the ruling of the chair be sustained?" An appeal, unlike the underlying Point of Order,  requires a second, is debatable (although with special rules), and requires a majority vote in the negative to overturn the chair's ruling. 

Additional rules and forms for these two motions are covered in RONR beginning on page 247.

[Guest Cindy]

So if the Motion conflicts with the Bylaws and the Chair wishes the motion to be voted on is there any other remedy?

[Guest Cindy]

Sorry I don’t think I posted my response correctly. I am trying again. 

If the motion conflicts with the Bylaws but the Chair wants the motion to pass, is there a remedy?

[Benjamin Geiger]

9 minutes ago, Guest Cindy said:

If the motion conflicts with the Bylaws but the Chair wants the motion to pass, is there a remedy?

Presumably your bylaws specify a method for amendment (and if not, it's Amend Something Previously Adopted).

[Joshua Katz]

What do you mean by a remedy? If you mean a way to stop the chair, then the answer is a point of order followed by an appeal if necessary. If you mean a way to pass the motion anyway, then amending the bylaws - or suspending the relevant rule IF it is clearly in the nature of a rule of order or provides for its own suspension.

[Gary Novosielski]

4 hours ago, Guest Cindy said:

Sorry I don’t think I posted my response correctly. I am trying again. 

If the motion conflicts with the Bylaws but the Chair wants the motion to pass, is there a remedy?

Did you see Greg Goodwiller's answer above, which answered that question rather completely?  I.e., a Point of Order, potentially followed by an Appeal.

[Gary Novosielski]

4 hours ago, Guest Cindy said:

Sorry I don’t think I posted my response correctly. I am trying again. 

If the motion conflicts with the Bylaws but the Chair wants the motion to pass, is there a remedy?

I may have misunderstood--which side of this conflict are you on?  Are you looking for a way to ensure that the chair does not prevail, or are you looking for a way to pass the motion, notwithstanding the conflict with the bylaws?

[Guest Cindy]

No, the conflict with the bylaws is why I wish to move a motion. The Chair and others want an action to be approved but the Bylaws as written are being interpreted differently regarding when an Ad Hoc Committee is dissolved. I support the Chair as a facilitator but do not agree with the person in the Chair’s interpretation of the Bylaw.  So I am asking if there is any remedy down the road.   I have requested a legal opinion. My question is can a member move a motion out of order if the motion  is conflicting with a Bylaw on when an Ad Hoc Committee actually dissolves.  

[Guest Zev]

I am having some difficulty understanding this situation. So please help me out Guest Cindy, and we will eventually get to the root of this problem.

36 minutes ago, Guest Cindy said:

No, the conflict with the bylaws is why I wish to move a motion.

If you know that the bylaws say something that prevents your motion from being stated by the chair then you should not be surprised that the chair may rule it as out of order. If your disagreement is with the wording in the bylaws then the usual way to handle these things is to read the rest of the bylaws and make a motion giving the proper number of days notice, as mentioned in the bylaws, and submit the exact words that replace the words you find offensive or that simply prevent you from doing what you want.

40 minutes ago, Guest Cindy said:

The Chair and others want an action to be approved but the Bylaws as written are being interpreted differently regarding when an Ad Hoc Committee is dissolved.

According to what we consider the rules, ad hoc committees are not dissolved in the sense that someone moves that "committee so-and-so be dissolved," but rather an ad hoc committee simply ceases to exist automatically whenever it presents its final report, or a motion is made to Discharge A Committee whenever an ad hoc committee makes a partial report. If you want the committee dissolved then make a motion to Discharge A Committee and if you want the committee to continue you could move to Refer the motion back to a different ad hoc committee or the same one.

46 minutes ago, Guest Cindy said:

I support the Chair as a facilitator but do not agree with the person in the Chair’s interpretation of the Bylaw.

Disagreement in debate is not unusual. However, when the chair issues a ruling on a Point Of Order and the assembly either sustains him or reverses his decision, the chair feels as though he has been doing exactly what his job is. If the Point Of Order was issued in the present instant then an Appeal is the method to signal your disagreement. If the ruling was issued in the past then whenever a similar situation occurs you raise a Point Of Order, the chairman indicates the precedent, and you Appeal the precedent which the assembly will sustain, overturn, or modify in part. If you wish to change the precedent at some other time then an Incidental Main Motion is needed and simply word the interpretation to what you want it to be.

57 minutes ago, Guest Cindy said:

So I am asking if there is any remedy down the road.

It all depends on what exactly you are trying to accomplish.

58 minutes ago, Guest Cindy said:

I have requested a legal opinion.

In this particular forum we do not provide such advice. A legal opinion would have a connection to some statute; a parliamentary opinion would have a connection to one of the works of parliamentary procedure, of which Robert's is one of them.

1 hour ago, Guest Cindy said:

My question is can a member move a motion out of order if the motion  is conflicting with a Bylaw on when an Ad Hoc Committee actually dissolves.  

The case of actually ruling a motion out of order can only be done by the presiding officer. A member, however, can request via a Point Of Order that he render such an opinion, but a member of an assembly cannot just stand up and shout "This motion is out of order!" or any such thing. Remember, to maintain proper decorum and remain a dignified body, the proper observance of the rules is needed, and besides, it will not take but a second or two to do this. I am in doubt as to whether your beef is with the interpretation or with the bylaws. Does any of this help?

[Atul Kapur]

I have to admit that I am quite lost by Guest Cindy's description as it's missing key information. So I admire Guest Zev's willingness to tackle it. However, I noticed one area of Zev's response that's not quite accurate.

 

29 minutes ago, Guest Zev said:

an ad hoc committee simply ceases to exist automatically whenever it presents its final report, or a motion is made to Discharge A Committee whenever an ad hoc committee makes a partial report.

The motion to Discharge a Committee can be made at any time after the matter is referred and before the committee has made a final report. It requires a higher threshold than a majority vote except when the assembly is considering a partial report or when the report is overdue. In those two situations, a majority vote is adequate for adoption of the motion.

[Gary Novosielski]

1 hour ago, Guest Zev said:

but a member of an assembly cannot just stand up and shout "This motion is out of order!" or any such thing.

But a member can stand up and say "Point of Order: This motion is out of order!"

Edited May 29, 2019 at 06:14 AM by Gary Novosielski

[Guest Zev]

2 hours ago, Atul Kapur said:

...or when the report is overdue.

Yes! Thank you Dr Kapur!

1 hour ago, Gary Novosielski said:

"Point of Order: This motion is out of order!"

Again, yes. The important thing is that the use of proper parliamentary language is the key that signals what should happen next and is instrumental in preserving the necessary decorum. I do not think that you need to be reminded of this but rather other readers that have less experience and are dealing with meetings that have these decorum issues. So yes, "Point Of Order!" followed by why the speaker thinks it is out of order is a much more proper way of addressing this. Keep up the good work, gentlemen.

[Richard Brown]

I am at a loss as to what kind of remedy guest Cindy is looking for. She is not explaining the situation or what she is trying to accomplish very well. I can't tell if she is looking for a way to have something ruded out of order or if she is looking for a way to do it despite the fact that it is out of order.

Guest Cindy, exactly what is it that you are trying to accomplish? 

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 5/29/2019 at 6:53 AM, Richard Brown said:

I can't tell if she is looking for a way to have something ruded out of order

I think she would prefer that it be polited out of order.