Who takes minutes if Secretary is absent?

[Guest KDRREPTG]

If the "President should appoint someone" is the gerneral rule, is it permissible for the President to take the minutes? We're a very small board (Pres, VP, Sec, co-Treas, Teacher Rep, Principal) of a nonprofit school parent teacher group. If the President takes meeting minutes, can they be deemed invalid when approving at the next meeting?

[Atul Kapur]

In this one case, it would probably have been better to add on to your previous question, which Guest Zev answered

Guest Zev did not say the President appoints someone. The group should elect someone to serve as Secretary pro tempore, for that meeting. The advice against having the president  do both is not because the minutes would be invalid but, rather, because it is difficult for one person to do both jobs well.

This can be done very simply. The president can suggest that someone, for example the vice-president, serve as the secretary for this meeting and ask if there's any objection. If there's no objection, then it's done.

Edited September 14, 2019 at 03:03 PM by Atul Kapur
Added last paragraph

[Guest KDRREPTG]

Apparently I posted last night when falling asleep while researching and forgot. My apologies for the duplication!

I didn't mean that Guest Zev said that was the general rule, it's the only response I have found while researching this topic. Because we're so small and our meetings are quite simple & quick, I (President) had no problem holding the meeting and keeping notes. I was also the only one present who ever had taken meeting notes. A new board member (co-Treasurer) who was also absent from the mtg states now that the President can't take & submit the minutes. 

[Atul Kapur]

Ask this person to find and show you the rule that says that.

[Joshua Katz]

I don't have the text in front of me, but doesn't RONR say something to the effect of there being two people needed: a presiding officer and a secretary? If so, doesn't that suggest they aren't the same person?

[Gary Novosielski]

4 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

I don't have the text in front of me, but doesn't RONR say something to the effect of there being two people needed: a presiding officer and a secretary? If so, doesn't that suggest they aren't the same person?

That's the way I read it, but others have disagreed.

[Hieu H. Huynh]

When the board approves its minutes, it doesn't matter who took them.

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

5 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

That's the way I read it, but others have disagreed.

I disagree - on the basis of RONR pg. 440, ll. 14-17, which states, "The assembly is free, however, to elect the same person to another office on a subsequent ballot, unless the bylaws prohibit a person from holding both offices simultaneously."

That's not specifically about a chair and a secretary, but in writing bylaws for organizations, I always try to be clear about which offices may and may not be combined.

[Gary Novosielski]

10 minutes ago, Greg Goodwiller said:

I disagree - on the basis of RONR pg. 440, ll. 14-17, which states, "The assembly is free, however, to elect the same person to another office on a subsequent ballot, unless the bylaws prohibit a person from holding both offices simultaneously."

That's not specifically about a chair and a secretary, but in writing bylaws for organizations, I always try to be clear about which offices may and may not be combined.

That language is certainly there, but It appears to be more general than the rule that two officers--presiding and recording-are the minimum required for a meeting.  That's why I think the latter, as the more specific rule, should prevail. 

In my view, offices are not people; officers are.  A person can hold two offices, but cannot be two officers.  So I would argue that by adopting RONR, the organization has prohibited one officer from performing those two specific functions simultaneously at a given meeting of an assembly.

 

Edited September 14, 2019 at 04:50 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Rob Elsman]

In a "very small board" that follows the more relaxed rules for small boards, it is more likely that the presiding officer can also function as secretary or "scribe", as he is sometimes called. Nothing in RONR prohibits this arrangement; however, care should be taken that the combined responsibilities are not too onerous.

[Guest KDRREPTG]

2 hours ago, reelsman said:

In a "very small board" that follows the more relaxed rules for small boards, it is more likely that the presiding officer can also function as secretary or "scribe", as he is sometimes called. Nothing in RONR prohibits this arrangement; however, care should be taken that the combined responsibilities are not too onerous.

That's what we are looking for- does RONR forbid the President from taking or submitting meeting minutes. 

[Dan Honemann]

15 minutes ago, Guest KDRREPTG said:

That's what we are looking for- does RONR forbid the President from taking or submitting meeting minutes. 

No.