Tomm Posted October 13, 2019 at 04:14 PM Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 at 04:14 PM The way I understand it; when a motion is offered as a Resolution, you first amend and vote on the “Resolved” portion. Once that’s finalized you amend and vote on the “Preamble/Whereas” portion. Question: Once both portions of the motion have been amended, voted on and approved, is there a vote to approve the Motion as a whole or was each individual vote on each portion sufficient? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 13, 2019 at 04:17 PM Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 at 04:17 PM 2 minutes ago, Tomm said: The way I understand it; when a motion is offered as a Resolution, you first amend and vote on the “Resolved” portion. Once that’s finalized you amend and vote on the “Preamble/Whereas” portion. Question: Once both portions of the motion have been amended, voted on and approved, is there a vote to approve the Motion as a whole or was each individual vote on each portion sufficient? It's just one vote on the whole thing. " In moving the adoption of a resolution, the preamble is not usually mentioned, since it is included in the resolution. " RONR (11th ed.), p. 108 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted October 13, 2019 at 05:22 PM Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 at 05:22 PM Expanding a bit on George (who probably didn't feel like typing so much this afternoon): First, you consider and vote on amendments to the main body of the resolution, then the same for the "Whereases", then you vote on both at once (as George said) to adopt both as a package deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted October 13, 2019 at 07:03 PM Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 at 07:03 PM So that's what I was kinda asking and alluding too in my question. It's kind of a 3 step, 3 vote process? Once both portions of the motion have been amended, voted on and approved, is there a vote to approve the Motion as a whole or was each individual vote on each portion sufficient? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted October 13, 2019 at 10:25 PM Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 at 10:25 PM 6 hours ago, George Mervosh said: Once both portions of the motion have been amended, voted on and approved, is there a vote to approve the Motion as a whole or was each individual vote on each portion sufficient? Once both portions of the motion--Resolved, then Whereas--have been amended (strike "voted on and approved"), there is a vote to approve the motion as a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted October 14, 2019 at 02:21 AM Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 at 02:21 AM 10 hours ago, Tomm said: when a motion is offered as a Resolution, you first amend and vote on the “Resolved” portion. Once that’s finalized you amend and vote on the “Preamble/Whereas” portion. Notice the corrections I made to the quote . You amend the Resolved portion but you do not vote to approve it at that point. You then open the preamble / Whereas portion to amendment but, again, do not vote on it until: "After any amendment of the preamble, a single vote is taken on the question of adopting the entire resolution ..." (RONR 11th ed., p 139, lines 12-14) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted October 14, 2019 at 02:42 AM Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 at 02:42 AM Well then, how can the Resolved portion be amended if the assembly didn't vote whether to approve or disapprove the amendments made to it? Same for the Preamble! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted October 14, 2019 at 03:47 AM Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 at 03:47 AM 1 hour ago, Tomm said: Well then, how can the Resolved portion be amended if the assembly didn't vote whether to approve or disapprove the amendments made to it? Same for the Preamble! You vote on each amendment. What you don't do is then vote on whether to approve the resolved portion standing alone, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted October 14, 2019 at 04:34 AM Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 at 04:34 AM So then would I be correct to say that a Resolution requires at least 3 votes? One that amends and approves the Resolution portion, one that approves, if amended, the Whereas portion, then one that approves the whole thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted October 14, 2019 at 08:56 AM Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 at 08:56 AM No. At least one vote is required - to approve the thing. If you want to amend it, a vote is needed on each amendment. There is no "extra" vote approving each portion after it is amended. But I'm not saying anything new, so I'm not sure I'm solving a problem here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted October 14, 2019 at 01:24 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 at 01:24 PM (edited) Let me try again. If there are no amendments to the Resolveds (just some debate) then once the debate is completed you move, without taking any vote, to the preamble. ("Is there any further debate on the Resolved clauses? There being none, we move to consideration of the preamble.") Similarly, if there is no amendment moved on the preamble, then once that debate is complete you take one vote on the entire resolution. If there is an amendment, say to one of the Resolved clauses, you process the amendment but you still do not vote on the Resolved section as a whole before proceeding to the preamble: ("Is there any further debate on the Resolved clauses as amended? There being none, we move to consideration of the preamble.") Edited October 14, 2019 at 01:28 PM by Atul Kapur Added last paragraph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted October 14, 2019 at 02:33 PM Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 at 02:33 PM I kinda think we're saying the same thing??? Each portion, Resolved and Preamble may or may not require a vote depending on whether or not any one of them was amended. In that case one vote would be taken. BUT, if the Resolved portion was amended, you would need a vote to approve that amendment and then you would have a second vote to approve the whole Resolution. If both the Resolved and Preamble portion were amended, then there would have been three votes taken to dispose of the entire Resolution. I wasn't implying that 3 votes were mandatory, only that if each portion required an amendment it would have taken three vote to accomplish the task?! Sorry for any confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted October 14, 2019 at 03:21 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 at 03:21 PM It could take five votes, if each of the Resolved and preamble were amended twice. (Or seven votes if there are three amendments each, etc). But the point we're all trying to emphasize is that the vote on an amendment is different from a vote on the Resolved portion. At that point, you're only voting on the amendment, not on the entire Resolved portion. The way you are expressing it leads to confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 14, 2019 at 05:07 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 at 05:07 PM 2 hours ago, Tomm said: I kinda think we're saying the same thing??? Each portion, Resolved and Preamble may or may not require a vote depending on whether or not any one of them was amended. In that case one vote would be taken. BUT, if the Resolved portion was amended, you would need a vote to approve that amendment and then you would have a second vote to approve the whole Resolution. If both the Resolved and Preamble portion were amended, then there would have been three votes taken to dispose of the entire Resolution. I wasn't implying that 3 votes were mandatory, only that if each portion required an amendment it would have taken three vote to accomplish the task?! Sorry for any confusion. In addition to my colleagues’ comments clarifying that the number of votes taken in processing a resolution will vary depending on how many amendment(s) and other secondary motions are made, I would also encourage the assembly to bear in mind that RONR advises that a preamble should be used sparingly. There appears to be a presumption in the original question that a preamble is a necessary or common part of a resolution, which is not the case. “It is usually inadvisable to attempt to include reasons for a motion's adoption within the motion itself. To do so may encumber the motion and may weigh against its adoption—since some members who approve of the action it proposes may dislike voting for it if it states reasons with which they disagree. When special circumstances make it desirable to include a brief statement of background, the motion should be cast in the form of a resolution, with the background or reasons incorporated in a preamble that is placed before the resolving clauses. A preamble consists of one or more clauses beginning "Whereas, ...." It should be emphasized that neither rule nor custom requires a resolution to have a preamble, and one should not be used merely for the sake of form. In general, the use of a preamble should be limited to cases where it provides little-known information without which the point or the merits of a resolution are likely to be poorly understood, where unusual importance is attached to making certain reasons for an action a matter of record, or the like.” (RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 106-107, emphasis in original) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted October 15, 2019 at 03:49 AM Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 at 03:49 AM On 10/13/2019 at 10:42 PM, Tomm said: Well then, how can the Resolved portion be amended if the assembly didn't vote whether to approve or disapprove the amendments made to it? Same for the Preamble! You start out with debate on the Resolved portion. If debates are offered, you debate them and vote on them. When no (more) amendments are offered on the Resolved portion, and debate is completed, you simply move on to debating the Preamble. Amendments to the preamble are in order, and are handled the same way. None of these votes are votes of approval on any portion of the language of the resolution, they are simply votes to agree or not agree to the amendments offered. They do not imply approval of the resolution as a whole. When there are no more amendments or further debate, the question is put on the entire resolution as (potentially) amended. That is the only vote to approve or reject the actual resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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