Nominations from the Floor process for Board Members during Annual Membership Meeting

[NotSure]

1 hour ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

You keep referring to "the ballot". What, exactly, do you mean by that?

They send around a ballot to each homeowner a month or so before the election. Occasionally more people run than there are seats, but not usually. At each election I have attended so far, they have always called for nominations from the floor during the election, if all seats are not filled by those on the ballot. Board members can fill positions at other times as needed when there are vacancies.

[Bruce Lages]

What we need to know is whether this 'ballot' that is sent to all homeowners is where the voters are expected to indicate their choices for board members and then return to the association to be counted; or is it just a list of all the nominees for an election to be held at a subsequent meeting.

[J. J.]

9 hours ago, NotSure said:

In the Bylaws, there is no mention of any rules regarding write-in candidates.

There does not have to be.  They are authorized in ballot votes unless prohibited in the bylaws.

[NotSure]

On 11/9/2020 at 1:22 PM, Bruce Lages said:

What we need to know is whether this 'ballot' that is sent to all homeowners is where the voters are expected to indicate their choices for board members and then return to the association to be counted; or is it just a list of all the nominees for an election to be held at a subsequent meeting.

Ballots are sent, and the names are there from people submitting them in the two or so previous months before. When there are seats available, meaning when all 7 spots will not be filled by whoever is running, they also ask during the annual meeting for nominations from the floor. 

[Richard Brown]

22 minutes ago, NotSure said:

Ballots are sent, and the names are there from people submitting them in the two or so previous months before. When there are seats available, meaning when all 7 spots will not be filled by whoever is running, they also ask during the annual meeting for nominations from the floor. 

Unless your bylaws provide otherwise, nominations from the floor should be permitted regardless of how many spots there are to fill.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/9/2020 at 11:33 AM, NotSure said:

In the Bylaws, there is no mention of any rules regarding write-in candidates.

If your bylaws specify RONR as your parliamentary authority, then you have a number of rules regarding write-in candidates.

[NotSure]

7 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

If your bylaws specify RONR as your parliamentary authority, then you have a number of rules regarding write-in candidates.

Ok, and I'd think they'd have to abide by them, but I am trying to show the differences between a floor nomination and a write in candidate, because the people I am dealing with seemed to be merging the two, even though there are no rules regarding either of these that show these two items merged in any way, meaning they re definitely separate processes.

[Dan Honemann]

10 hours ago, NotSure said:

Ballots are sent, and the names are there from people submitting them in the two or so previous months before. When there are seats available, meaning when all 7 spots will not be filled by whoever is running, they also ask during the annual meeting for nominations from the floor. 

This appears to be saying that these "ballots" are sent out to members prior to the annual meeting when further nominations may be made from the floor. When members receive these ballots prior to the meeting, what are they supposed to do with them?  Can they mark their choices on them and submit them prior to the meeting? 

[NotSure]

3 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

This appears to be saying that these "ballots" are sent out to members prior to the annual meeting when further nominations may be made from the floor. When members receive these ballots prior to the meeting, what are they supposed to do with them?  Can they mark their choices on them and submit them prior to the meeting? 

Yes, they can mail them, or bring them to the meeting.

[Gary Novosielski]

1 hour ago, NotSure said:

Yes, they can mail them, or bring them to the meeting.

RONR recommends strongly against any voting procedure that mixes absentee votes with in-person votes.  If, for example, it became necessary to have a second ballot, what would be done with the absentee votes?

[NotSure]

22 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

RONR recommends strongly against any voting procedure that mixes absentee votes with in-person votes.  If, for example, it became necessary to have a second ballot, what would be done with the absentee votes?

I don't know what to say to that. There are usually nominations from the floor caled for, but this was the first time I ever saw one attempted to be processed, and what I see is that they fumbled it badly based on someone advising them with incorrect information-that a nomination from the floor also required a ballot-which is not in our Bylaws, nor the state laws. This group is very bad at Robert's Rules. They often cherry pick when they need RONR to occasionally serve a specific need but then dismiss it entirely when a favored person is breaking the rules or violating a not-so-favored person's rights.

[Richard Brown]

@NotSure do year bylaws Provide for voting absentee by mail? If so, please quote the provision if you are able to. If your bylaws do not provide for absentee voting or voting by mail, doing so is not permissible.

[NotSure]

4 hours ago, Richard Brown said:

@NotSure do year bylaws Provide for voting absentee by mail? If so, please quote the provision if you are able to. If your bylaws do not provide for absentee voting or voting by mail, doing so is not permissible.

Can you tell me the the relevance of absentee voting to the question I am asking? Meanwhile, I will look for the verbiage in the Bylaws.

[Richard Brown]

4 hours ago, NotSure said:

Can you tell me the the relevance of absentee voting to the question I am asking? Meanwhile, I will look for the verbiage in the Bylaws.

The relevance is that absentee voting or voting by mail is not permitted unless it is provided for in your bylaws or required as an option by state law. 

[NotSure]

On 11/11/2020 at 9:46 AM, Richard Brown said:

@NotSure do year bylaws Provide for voting absentee by mail? If so, please quote the provision if you are able to. If your bylaws do not provide for absentee voting or voting by mail, doing so is not permissible.

I will keep this up for 24 hours:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1anXNP-jLItFbUskLNu_KW86mxnZRcwxeOMsPYyN92fI/edit

 

Also...

I just read on another thread that if Nominations from the Floor are not prohibited in the Bylaws, that the chair MUST call for them, and also from this thread, that when they do call for them, that process is governed by RONR (meaning the chair cannot make up rules on the spot about that process).

Now my new question is... if the Bylaws state that voting will be done by Secret Ballot, does that mean Nomination from the Floor also require one, or would the Bylaws have to specify that? Since the Bylaws do not mention Floor nominations at all, to reuire a ballot for that process as well seems to be in the vein of someone making up a random rule on the spot...

[Gary Novosielski]

If your bylaws require a ballot vote, then a ballot vote must be held.

Nominations, whether from a committee, or from the floor, are part of the same election, and the ballot vote requirement remains in effect. 

The bylaws may not mention nominations from the floor, but RONR does, so it is far from made up on the spot.  If RONR is your parliamentary authority then its rules are your rules, unless superseded by your bylaws or special rules of order.

 

[NotSure]

12 hours ago, Gary Novosielski said:

If your bylaws require a ballot vote, then a ballot vote must be held.

Nominations, whether from a committee, or from the floor, are part of the same election, and the ballot vote requirement remains in effect. 

The bylaws may not mention nominations from the floor, but RONR does, so it is far from made up on the spot.  If RONR is your parliamentary authority then its rules are your rules, unless superseded by your bylaws or special rules of order.

 

The Bylaws specify "Secret Ballot", but a nomination from the Floor is quite public, so doesn't the idea of then putting this public information on a "secret" ballot kind of odd? I was under the impression that voting by ballot, and a write-in candidate, and nominations from the Floor were all different processes.

Another thing is that our state laws say that unless the Bylaws specifically allow write-in candidates, that they are prohibited, and our Bylaws do not mention write-in candidates. What I was told was that my nomination from the floor would be considered a write-in candidate, which seems to be prohibited since they are not mentioned, unless I am confused. 

[Atul Kapur]

The "secret" in ballot refers to fact that the person's vote is secret.

 

[Richard Brown]

5 hours ago, NotSure said:

The Bylaws specify "Secret Ballot", but a nomination from the Floor is quite public, so doesn't the idea of then putting this public information on a "secret" ballot kind of odd? I was under the impression that voting by ballot, and a write-in candidate, and nominations from the Floor were all different processes.

No.  As Dr. Kapur stated, a secret ballot means only that your actual vote is secret.  The names of the nominees, whether nominated by a nominating committee, self nominations,  or nominations from the floor are all public pretty much by definition.  Can you imagine voting when the names of the nominees are kept secret?? 

5 hours ago, NotSure said:

Another thing is that our state laws say that unless the Bylaws specifically allow write-in candidates, that they are prohibited, and our Bylaws do not mention write-in candidates

If that is what the law in your state says, then so be it.  We do not give legal opinions.  I do find that  provision a bit odd, and I'm curious as to what state it is and what the nature of this organization is.

5 hours ago, NotSure said:

What I was told was that my nomination from the floor would be considered a write-in candidate, which seems to be prohibited since they are not mentioned, unless I am confused. 

I don't know who told you that or what the source of that person's information is, but per the rules in RONR nominations from the floor definitely ARE NOT write in candidates.  They are official nominees just as much so as members nominated by the nominating committee.  It might be true that if the ballots have been pre-printed you  may have to write their names on your ballot, but that doesn't turn them into "write-in" votes.   They have been officially nominated.

Edited November 17, 2020 at 10:11 PM by Richard Brown
Typographical corrections

[NotSure]

4 hours ago, Richard Brown said:

I don't know who told you that or what the source of that person's information is, but per the rules in RONR nominations from the floor definitely ARE NOT write in candidates.  They are official nominees just as much so as members nominated by the nominating committee.  It might be true that if the ballots have been pre-printed you  may have to write their names on your ballot, but that doesn't turn them into "write-in" votes.   They have been officially nominated.

The property manager chimed in at the end of the meeting, after the election was over, and said since I did not have my name on a ballot, I was not elected. She aid that in order to be elected I had to write my name on a ballot and turn it in, which to me makes no sense. Then she told the chair to tell me I was no longer a board member. It was actually quite humiliating.

Edit: This was after she told the chair earlier that nominating myself was "legal" and it qualified me to be elected.

Edited November 18, 2020 at 02:15 AM by NotSure

[Josh Martin]

12 hours ago, NotSure said:

The property manager chimed in at the end of the meeting, after the election was over, and said since I did not have my name on a ballot, I was not elected. She aid that in order to be elected I had to write my name on a ballot and turn it in, which to me makes no sense. Then she told the chair to tell me I was no longer a board member. It was actually quite humiliating.

Edit: This was after she told the chair earlier that nominating myself was "legal" and it qualified me to be elected.

I've had a hard time following all of this, and it seems the organization has its own customized rules. In the general case, what RONR provides is that if a ballot vote is not required by the organization's rules, then if the number of nominees is equal to or less than the number of available positions, the chair simply declares those persons elected by acclamation, and no vote is taken.

If a ballot vote is required by the organization's rules or if a ballot vote is nonetheless taken, then persons need to actually be elected in the ballot vote. So far as RONR is concerned, a majority vote is required for election. In the context of a vote for multiple identical positions, this means that a person's name must be written on a majority of the ballots cast (excluding blanks). If fewer persons are elected then there are available positions, another round of voting is held, and so on and so forth until all positions are filled. So if there are fewer nominees then available positions, all of those people are still going to be elected eventually. If your bylaws in fact provide that a plurality vote is all that is required, that would speed up the process, since in such a case the persons receiving the greatest number of votes (even if that number is less than a majority) are elected, up to the number of available positions. If a vote is taken and someone receives zero votes, however, then such a person certainly will not be elected.

What part of this doesn't make sense?

Edited November 18, 2020 at 02:55 PM by Josh Martin

[NotSure]

1 hour ago, Josh Martin said:

I've had a hard time following all of this, and it seems the organization has its own customized rules. In the general case, what RONR provides is that if a ballot vote is not required by the organization's rules, then if the number of nominees is equal to or less than the number of available positions, the chair simply declares those persons elected by acclamation, and no vote is taken.

If a ballot vote is required by the organization's rules or if a ballot vote is nonetheless taken, then persons need to actually be elected in the ballot vote. So far as RONR is concerned, a majority vote is required for election. In the context of a vote for multiple identical positions, this means that a person's name must be written on a majority of the ballots cast (excluding blanks). If fewer persons are elected then there are available positions, another round of voting is held, and so on and so forth until all positions are filled. So if there are fewer nominees then available positions, all of those people are still going to be elected eventually. If your bylaws in fact provide that a plurality vote is all that is required, that would speed up the process, since in such a case the persons receiving the greatest number of votes (even if that number is less than a majority) are elected, up to the number of available positions. If a vote is taken and someone receives zero votes, however, then such a person certainly will not be elected.

What part of this doesn't make sense?

How the voting works is: if fewer people are running than there are seats, a single vote, even from their own selves can get them elected.

I guess I am just seeing a disconnect on how a floor nomination must be written on a ballot, even though there is nothing that says that is specifically required or allowed, and I am not sure why the property manager said that is becomes a write-in candidate, and that is why a ballot is needed, but as I ai previously, I thought those were different processes that all get a person elected (ballot with declarants printed on them, write in candidate, and nominations from the floor). Are you saying that no matter how it happens, the bottom line is that a ballot is needed? 

If a person does not know this, and goes about to make a floor nomination, is it the duty of anyone to inform them of the requirement for a ballot in order to complete the process, or?

As it happened, they accepted the nomination, went through the whole meeting and said nothing, and then at the end said since there was no ballot, I was not elected. They did not say "actually we need a ballot, and you can bring it to the office" or "you can bring it now" or anything like that (I was attending the meeting remotely). They just let the time lapse until the election was technically over, and then told me.

Edited to add: Also... the chair did not know the requirement, the manager told her two different things... first that it was "legal" and that I was elected, then almost 3 hours later she said that a ballot was needed and I was not elected.

Edited November 18, 2020 at 04:33 PM by NotSure

[Josh Martin]

43 minutes ago, NotSure said:

How the voting works is: if fewer people are running than there are seats, a single vote, even from their own selves can get them elected.

This is a correct statement if the organization's rules provide for a plurality vote.

44 minutes ago, NotSure said:

I guess I am just seeing a disconnect on how a floor nomination must be written on a ballot, even though there is nothing that says that is specifically required or allowed, and I am not sure why the property manager said that is becomes a write-in candidate, and that is why a ballot is needed

A nomination from the floor is made orally, not by writing a name on a ballot.

The term "write-in candidate" is used somewhat inconsistently. In some organizations, ballots are preprinted with various names on them. In such cases, the term "write-in candidate" is often used to refer to a person whose name is "written in" on the ballot. This could conceivably mean a person who is nominated from the floor or a person who has not been nominated at all.  Others use the term "write-in candidate" to refer solely to a person who has not been nominated at all.

47 minutes ago, NotSure said:

I thought those were different processes that all get a person elected (ballot with declarants printed on them, write in candidate, and nominations from the floor).

A nomination from the floor, in and of itself, does not elect anyone to office. A nomination is simply a suggestion for a person to fill an office. Nominations generally occur prior to the election itself, although in some cases they may also occur in between rounds of voting. Your organization's process is somewhat unusual in that it appears that nominations from the floor occur during a round of voting.

49 minutes ago, NotSure said:

Are you saying that no matter how it happens, the bottom line is that a ballot is needed? 

No, not necessarily. As I have indicated previously, if the organization's rules do not require a ballot vote, the general procedure is that if the number of candidates is less than or equal to the number of positions to be filled, the chair simply declares those candidates elected by acclamation and no vote is held.

If a ballot vote is taken, however, either because the organization's rules require it or for whatever other reason, then the only manner in which a person could be elected is by that person receiving one or more votes in the election. The manner in which to do this is by indicating as much on a ballot, by members marking their choices on the ballot and/or by writing in the names of persons not listed on the ballot. Under the rules in RONR, a majority vote is required for election. If the organization's rules provide for a plurality vote, then those persons receiving the greatest number of votes (whether or not this is a majority), up to the number of positions to be filled, are elected.

As you have indicated earlier, in the event that an organization provides for election by plurality vote, then "if fewer people are running than there are seats, a single vote, even from their own selves can get them elected." A person who receives zero votes, however, is not elected.

54 minutes ago, NotSure said:

As it happened, they accepted the nomination, went through the whole meeting and said nothing, and then at the end said since there was no ballot, I was not elected. They did not say "actually we need a ballot, and you can bring it to the office" or "you can bring it now" or anything like that (I was attending the meeting remotely). They just let the time lapse until the election was technically over, and then told me.

Edited to add: Also... the chair did not know the requirement, the manager told her two different things... first that it was "legal" and that I was elected, then almost 3 hours later she said that a ballot was needed and I was not elected.

It is unfortunate that you were given bad information, but the fact remains that if a ballot vote is taken, a person who receives zero votes is not elected.

If there are still open positions, then a solution would seem to be that the organization could use whatever vacancy-filling positions are in its bylaws to appoint you to fill one of the vacancies.

[NotSure]

5 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

If there are still open positions, then a solution would seem to be that the organization could use whatever vacancy-filling positions are in its bylaws to appoint you to fill one of the vacancies.

The board refuses to elect me because they do not like me. They indicated this through taking a vote right after I nominated myself when nominations were called for by taking a vote at the annual meeting right at that moment when the chair made a motion to ask the board if they wanted me to be appointed.

[Rob Elsman]

2 minutes ago, NotSure said:

The board refuses to elect me because they do not like me. They indicated this through taking a vote right after I nominated myself when nominations were called for by taking a vote at the annual meeting right at that moment when the chair made a motion to ask the board if they wanted me to be appointed.

I'm sure it's just me, but this does not make any sense.