Absence of Parliamentary Procedure & effects

[Jim Healer]

Hi everyone,

Has anyone dealt with what happens when a quasi-governmental organization fails to follow common parliamentary procedure in its dealings, has no reference to parliamentary procedure in its articles of incorporation, bylaws, or declarations, and then governing state law does not require a parliamentary procedure to be adopted?

How do we resolve a conflict?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

 

[Rob Elsman]

Well, "hissing and spitting" seem to have been useful in the ancient House of Commons.  And, once there was a severe beating with a cane on the floor of the United States Senate.  There is always recourse to the old-fashioned fist-fight.

Edited March 13, 2021 at 04:29 PM by Rob Elsman

[George Mervosh]

14 minutes ago, Rob Elsman said:

Well, "hissing and spitting" seem to have been useful in the ancient House of Commons.  And, once there was a severe beating with a cane on the floor of the United States Senate.  There is always recourse to the old-fashioned fist-fight.

At the 2FP we have more civil methods but conflict is rare to be sure.

[Guest Puzzling]

1 hour ago, Jim Healer said:

Hi everyone,

Has anyone dealt with what happens when a quasi-governmental organization fails to follow common parliamentary procedure in its dealings, has no reference to parliamentary procedure in its articles of incorporation, bylaws, or declarations, and then governing state law does not require a parliamentary procedure to be adopted?

How do we resolve a conflict?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

 

Quasi governmental organizations are most likely ruled by (state) laws , even if they claim they are not.  While state laws are not likely to prescribe a parliamentary authority like "Robert's rules of order"  they most likely do contain some rules of order.

The same applies to the bylaws without bylaws the organization legally does not even exist.

Also the likely set up by other government institutions complain directly by them (after you have tried there internal complaints procedure)

Can you give more specifics ?

 

[Richard Brown]

16 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

The same applies to the bylaws without bylaws the organization legally does not even exist.

 Responding at the moment only to that one statement in your comment, if the organization is incorporated, as this one obviously is since the original poster makes reference to the articles of incorporation, its legal existence began when it was incorporated and the state issued it a charter.

[Richard Brown]

21 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

Quasi governmental organizations are most likely ruled by (state) laws , even if they claim they are not.  While state laws are not likely to prescribe a parliamentary authority like "Robert's rules of order"  they most likely do contain some rules of order.

It would be more accurate to say that quasi-governmental organizations may be subject to state laws regarding what they can and cannot do, but it is highly unlikely that those laws encompass anywhere near the full range of parliamentary procedure covered by parliamentary authorities providing for the orderly conduction of business.   I would not even go so far as to say they probably contain some rules of order. More than likely they do not, except possibly for some provisions in the state Corporation code which would apply only if the organization is incorporated.  The state laws applicable to quasi governmental entities are much more likely to contain provisions dealing with the power and authority of such entities, not rules of parliamentary procedure.

[Atul Kapur]

Since this is an RONR forum,

"A deliberative assembly that has not adopted any rules is commonly understood to hold itself bound by the rules and customs of the general parliamentary law –-or common parliamentary law (as discussed in the Introduction)–-to the extent that there is agreement in the meeting body as to what these rules and practices are." RONR (12 ed.) 1: 5

[Jim Healer]

3 hours ago, Guest Puzzling said:

Quasi governmental organizations are most likely ruled by (state) laws , even if they claim they are not.  While state laws are not likely to prescribe a parliamentary authority like "Robert's rules of order"  they most likely do contain some rules of order.

The same applies to the bylaws without bylaws the organization legally does not even exist.

Also the likely set up by other government institutions complain directly by them (after you have tried there internal complaints procedure)

Can you give more specifics ?

 

In particular I am dealing with a Homeowners Association in Texas.  State Law gives the attachment of the NGO/Quasi-governmental authority to the land, and allows the organization to produce its own articles of incorporation, bylaws and restrictive covenants for the property.  My biggest challenge is the lack of process to hold an out-of-control organization accountable for blatant disregard for property owners in its overreach of authority. 

[Richard Brown]

8 minutes ago, Jim Healer said:

In particular I am dealing with a Homeowners Association in Texas

Are homeowner associations really considered quasi-governmental entities in Texas?  That would be surprising to me.  Homeowner associations, however, generally are subject to statutory regulations, some pertaining to meetings of the members and the boards of directors.

[Jim Healer]

10 minutes ago, Richard Brown said:

Are homeowner associations really considered quasi-governmental entities in Texas?  That would be surprising to me.  Homeowner associations, however, generally are subject to statutory regulations, some pertaining to meetings of the members and the boards of directors.

They carry the force of law to enforce real-estate covenants, levy fines, the power of foreclosure, etc...

[Richard Brown]

8 minutes ago, Jim Healer said:

They carry the force of law to enforce real-estate covenants, levy fines, the power of foreclosure, etc...

That does not make a homeowner association a quasi-governmental organization.  Is there some specific statute that makes them so in Texas law?

Regardless, though, even if homeowner associations in Texas are quasi-governmental entities, we can't tell you what the legal effect of failing to follow proper parliamentary procedure would be because that is a legal question that is beyond the scope of this forum.

[Jim Healer]

49 minutes ago, Richard Brown said:

That does not make a homeowner association a quasi-governmental organization.  Is there some specific statute that makes them so in Texas law?

Regardless, though, even if homeowner associations in Texas are quasi-governmental entities, we can't tell you what the legal effect of failing to follow proper parliamentary procedure would be because that is a legal question that is beyond the scope of this forum.

Actually, Richard, because of their power to levy fines and enforce restrictions on real property and property owners, it does make them required to follow 14th Amendment Due Process clause.  That is the real crux of the issue here.  I'm trying to find out where the line between fairness and arbitrary/capricious is.

I'm just looking for something that i maybe can use because there is an absence of authority.

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Jim Healer said:

My biggest challenge is the lack of process to hold an out-of-control organization accountable for blatant disregard for property owners in its overreach of authority. 

 

5 minutes ago, Jim Healer said:

I'm just looking for something that i maybe can use because there is an absence of authority.

Whether there is an overreach of authority or an absence of it, or both, it sounds like any remedy will require you seeking legal counsel, as you have been advised by others.

[Guest Puzzling]

2 hours ago, Jim Healer said:

In particular I am dealing with a Homeowners Association in Texas.  State Law gives the attachment of the NGO/Quasi-governmental authority to the land, and allows the organization to produce its own articles of incorporation, bylaws and restrictive covenants for the property.  My biggest challenge is the lack of process to hold an out-of-control organization accountable for blatant disregard for property owners in its overreach of authority. 

Have a look at

https://www.hopb.co/texas

For laws regulating hoa's in texas

And much more information on home owners association

[Atul Kapur]

14 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

Have a look at

I was wondering if you had taken the weekend off. It was > 90 minutes between Jim Healer saying it was an HOA and your post.

😄

[Guest Puzzling]

49 minutes ago, Jim Healer said:

I'm trying to find out where the line between fairness and arbitrary/capricious is.

Have a look at

https://www.hopb.co/blog/facts-about-selective-enforcement-by-an-hoa

 

 

[Guest Puzzling]

3 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

I was wondering if you had taken the weekend off. It was > 90 minutes between Jim Healer saying it was an HOA and your post.

😄

Sometimes I sleep

But do feel free to refer people to the Homeowners protection bureau www.hopb.co   yourself.(this also applies to other readers) 

I did ask the bureau  to be active  in this forum not sure if they will do so.  They are much more on the legal side of HOA 's 

I do think for hoa's the legal side in most cases is more important than the meeting order side. Hoa's not a really voluntary organization and often it is about a lot of money anger or tears.