Are incidental vote counts recorded?

[RSW]

RONR 48:5(2)(a) provides:

Quote

When a count has been ordered, the number of votes on each side is entered, unless the vote was on a motion that would not otherwise be entered in the minutes.

Does "a count has been ordered" solely mean when the assembly has ordered a count? Or does it apply to a count taken incidentally?

For example, with many meetings happening online via Zoom it's very difficult to effectively do things like rising votes and such. So if a voice vote is questionable, or somebody calls "division!" I've seen situations where a chair will just conduct a Zoom poll. That poll, by its very nature, yields an exact count.

Or in a particular in-person meeting, a chair may count for his own purposes *without* the assembly ordering it.

If done, should that count be recorded in the minutes? Or should the count only be recorded if it was ordered by the assembly?

[George Mervosh]

17 minutes ago, RSW said:

Or in a particular in-person meeting, a chair may count for his own purposes *without* the assembly ordering it.

If done, should that count be recorded in the minutes? Or should the count only be recorded if it was ordered by the assembly?

 

My own view of it is that if the vote is counted when voting on the main motion, the count should be entered into the minutes, whether ordered by the assembly, or the chair on his own initiative.

[Rob Elsman]

I agree with Mr. Mervosh to the extent that the vote is on a motion that would normally be entered on the minutes.  However, some motions are not entered on the minutes; in this case, the number of votes on each side is also not entered on the minutes.  See RONR (12th ed.) 48:5, item 2) a).

[Bruce Lages]

My take on Mr. Mervosh's suggestion would be that if the chair takes a count on his own initiative and then announces the count, it should be entered into the minutes for appropriate motions, but if the chair counts on his own and then just pronounces the motion carried or lost, his count would not be entered.

[RSW]

28 minutes ago, George Mervosh said:

My own view of it is that if the vote is counted when voting on the main motion, the count should be entered into the minutes, whether ordered by the assembly, or the chair on his own initiative.

Would your logic be that the point of *not* taking a count is to not be dilatory, but if you've already done it then the information is useful to record?

[George Mervosh]

6 minutes ago, RSW said:

Would your logic be that the point of *not* taking a count is to not be dilatory, but if you've already done it then the information is useful to record?

I'm not sure I understand this post but if a count is taken on a motion that will appear in the minutes, the result of the count needs to be announced and recorded in the minutes along with the chair's declaration of whether or not the motion was adopted.  I don't think it matters if the assembly ordered the vote be counted or the chair decided to count the vote because it was not clear to him which side prevailed.

Edited May 25, 2021 at 06:16 PM by George Mervosh

[J. J.]

8 hours ago, George Mervosh said:

I'm not sure I understand this post but if a count is taken on a motion that will appear in the minutes, the result of the count needs to be announced and recorded in the minutes along with the chair's declaration of whether or not the motion was adopted.  I don't think it matters if the assembly ordered the vote be counted or the chair decided to count the vote because it was not clear to him which side prevailed.

If the chair counts the vote at his own volition (29:6), would he necessarily have to announce the totals?   I could see a chair counting a standing vote mentally, and not articulating the results. 

[George Mervosh]

10 hours ago, J. J. said:

If the chair counts the vote at his own volition (29:6), would he necessarily have to announce the totals?   I could see a chair counting a standing vote mentally, and not articulating the results. 

Oh I can see that too and Mr. Lages already noted that possibility, but I think he should always announce the count.  Also, in 4:49 c) I don't think it matters who ordered the count, this form must be used.

Edited May 26, 2021 at 01:05 PM by George Mervosh

[Rob Elsman]

I agree with Mr. Mervosh.  When the number of votes on each side is known, it should be announced, regardless how the count came about.